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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/24/2005 10:28:49 PM   
JNorton



Posts: 3134
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Yah that is what was suggested on posts 9, 10 and 11 Sometimes I get sidetracked.

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/24/2005 10:31:16 PM   
Rodney



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From: FL
Status: offline 		JNorton, thanks for the good advice you are handing out. I appreciate the support. Rodney

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/24/2005 10:44:50 PM   
jlkonn



Posts: 1242
Joined: 1/2/2003
From: Planet Earth, IA, USA
Status: offline 		I have found this discussion very informative!
I wish I was an electronics expert but I am afraid I have to follow Randall's advice.
I bought a battery maintainer and it's working great!
Thanks!
JLK


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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:35:41 AM   
LarryC


 

Posts: 405
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Brookland, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Well, that was fun, but I still don't know the amp-hour capacity of my garden tractor battery.
I have been told to dump my battery in favor of a Gel-Cel by a HAM. I have at least three gel-cels; I wanted to know the AH capacity of the tractor battery. I first got my ham license when I was 13, a long time ago.

Chargers. The center-tap rectifier as drawn will tend to try to charge to the peak voltage of the rectified ac output, less diode loss, transformer loss etc. Approx (15x1.414) - .7 = 20.51 volts at no load, somewhat less loaded. The .7 is gesstimate of the diode voltage drop. A transformer at about 11 volts either side of center tap might be better. Unless you just enjoy building the stuff, it's safer to go by a good charger.

Larry

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:40:16 AM   
AS-EE


 

Posts: 191
Joined: 8/25/2005
From: Greenville, SC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Plus 10% = 14.3 volts. Minus 10% = 11.7 volts and your charger just stopped working. Not quite the constant voltage in bold letters that you used to reply to Rodney. Sorry you've just lost all credibility from me. I gave up Hot Wheels a long time ago. Any engineer worth his salt worries about line voltage variations.





Pure ignorance is showing from you now. If the voltage dropped from the supply then the battery will not lose charge. Do you want to know why? BECAUSE THE DIODES BLOCK THE BATTERY VOLTAGE FROM DISCHARGING THROUGH THE CIRCUIT IF THE VOLTAGE DROP IS LESS THAN THE BATTERY. THE BATTERY WILL SIMPLY NOT CHARGE. ONCE IT GOES BACK UP TO 14.3 VOLTS THE BATTERY WILL CHARGE AGAIN.



quote:

My Sears charger is an automatic taper charger and contains more than just a transformer and two diodes. Even the most basic chargers you are alluding to contain a circuit breaker as well. You are starting to sound like a young man defending his turf at all cost. Don't you worry about someone copying something you've incompletely posted on the Internet and hurting themselves?



A very basic charger for lead acids has a ciruit breaker, current meter, multitap prmary with center tap secondary transformer, a switch to select different taps on the primary for current charge rates, and two diodes.

DO YOU SEE ANY F****** SPECIAL CIRCUITRY PROTECTING THE BATTERY OR COUNTERACTIG LINE VOLTAGE VARIANCE PROTECTION CIRCUITRY??? NO!!! THATS WHY THEY INCLUDE A CURRENT METER SO YOU CAN HAVE A ENOUGH DAMN COMMON SENSE TO REMOVE THE BATTERY ONCE THE CURRENT METER SAYS "CHARGED".


IF YOU WANT MORE PROOF ON THE SIMPLICITY OF LEAD ACID CHARGERS THEN:







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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:44:56 AM   
randall1959



Posts: 863
Joined: 8/29/2004
From: Bolckow, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Do you have a specific purpose that you need an exact ma rating for? My thing is if it works, it works, especially for a lowly item like a starter motor. Go with the lightest battery that works. I recently made the mistake of going TOO light. I used to run my starter off a deep cycle lawnmower battery, but wanted to do everything from my flight box instead. The mower battery wouldn't fit so I got the biggest motorcycle battery I could fit in the case. It will start every one of my planes but two gassers that used to start right up. I carry along an Interstate Marine battery so I can always use that as I don't fly the two gassers enough to give me a hernia
If all you're starting are glow engines up to .91 you can get by with a pretty small battery.
Since the lawnmower battery is built for starting large items like that big old 19 horse B&S the rating is figured differently than the normal batteries that we do use. In that case they are tested for cranking ability at 32 degrees and then at zero degrees.

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:51:04 AM   
AS-EE


 

Posts: 191
Joined: 8/25/2005
From: Greenville, SC, USA
Status: offline 		See what you made me do Jnorton. I had to show you pictures just to get your brain thinking correctly. Usually I never have to resort to extreme measures on this forum becuase people know who I am and know what I do for a living, but you sir have no reasoning nor logical thinking so I had to go this far just to make you understand!!!!!!!!

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:52:29 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3134
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Rodney,
The facts speak for themselves. I must say however I've never known you to hand out bad advise. It is usually well considered. I think AS-EE intentions are good. He just needs to think about his audience a little bit more and to present his ideas a little more thoroughly.

JLK,
Good choice.


Larry C,
I believe your thinking of a bridge rectifier giving 20 volts this is a center tapped half wave. I use both a gell cell and a garden tractor battery and as long as neither experiences deep cycles both will last a long time. I simply charge mine through a 12 volts auxilary jack in my car on the way to the field. The cars alternator does a good job keeping them topped off. Sorry I was not able to find out your batteries mAh capacities. I spent over an hour on the net before I gave up. Do a cycle test on it down to 12 volts and see what your capacity is. 11.9 is considered fully discharged and I wouldn't take it down that far. You've got the tractor battery my advise is to use it!

John

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 12:56:03 AM   
LarryC


 

Posts: 405
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Brookland, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Randall,

I usually use a gel-cel for my starter and that works fine.
The garden tractor battery is used for charging small Li-Pos, and a Hobbico multi-charger that I have modified for dc power. It works well for 4 and 5 cell packs, not so swift on 8 due to the voltage drop in the charger.

I was simply trying to get an get estimate as to the capacity of the battery at a 5 or 20 hour rate, to see what I can actually get from it without discharging it too deeply. Not seriously important, really. I may just base an estimate on similar size/ weight of deep cycle batteries and reduce that capacity a tad.

Larry

< Message edited by LarryC -- 9/25/2005 1:36:29 AM >

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 1:39:58 AM   
AS-EE


 

Posts: 191
Joined: 8/25/2005
From: Greenville, SC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I believe your thinking of a bridge rectifier giving 20 volts this is a center tapped half wave.


Whoa now that's wrong. With center tap transformers when you use two diodes as configured in the above picture you have full wave rectification. Now if you only had a transformer that did not have a center tap then you would have to use a full-wave bridge (4 diodes).


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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 2:40:48 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3134
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Yup misspoke myself. I was thinking each phase of the transformer as a 1/2 wave rectifier and misspoke the whole thing is a full wave.
By the way just for giggles I learned about power supplies from an Army Air Core manual and a copy of the 1964 Radio Amateurs Handbook when I was in Jr High School study hall. Back then the only solid state rectifier was selenium - they stunk like rotten eggs if you overloaded them. 5U4's tubes were the hot ticket you could draw about 400 VDC at 350mA out of them.

Later,
John

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 3:09:52 AM   
LarryC


 

Posts: 405
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Brookland, AR, USA
Status: offline 		Smelly selenium rectifiers. Yup, you sure have that part right! Believe it or not, I still have to work on some equipment that has those!
Those old ARRL handbooks had a lot of information in them. I think I still have a '63 here somewhere. I did have 1955 and 1957, but they were destroyed in a fire that was started by......., you guessed it, a battery charger. My homebrew 813 transmitter went too.

I did find some information on a U1 sized deep cycle battery. It was rated at 23 amp-hours.
I found a U1 size rating for a Champion brand garden tractor battery that was rated for 40 minutes @ 25 amps. That works out to about 15 amp-hour at the high discharge rate of 25 amps. I would guess that at a load that would discharge it in 5 hours or longer it may be 17-18 ah. I think that is close enough for what I am doing. I want to avoid taking it down too low. But at the price of these things, they aren't bad. This battery was purchased in the spring of 04 and so far it's holding up well.

Larry

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/25/2005 3:48:59 AM   
JNorton



Posts: 3134
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Montague, MI, USA
Status: offline 		LarryC,
Glad you figured out the approximate aH rating. This thread sure took some turns didn't it?

My oldest surviving Handbook is from 1973. I had copies from the 50's and 60's. I purchased a new copy in 98 and was immensely disappointed. The drawings and quality of the home brew projects have fallen off a cliff. Course it doesn't help when you can't get parts because they're not available and the finished project cost more to build than a commercial unit. Still some good came from it - I stopped building electronics projects and started building airplanes instead!
Of course I see parallels in the fact that it is now cheaper to buy ARFs for many models than it is to build kits. Ah well I still enjoy building.

John

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RE: Garden Tractor Battery - 9/26/2005 1:03:51 AM   
bldrums



Posts: 478
Joined: 9/30/2002
From: C-Ville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Sooooo, can I use the Sears 1.5 Automatic Battery Charger and leave it connected for a few days (4 or 5 ) at a time, to my 12v 600ma sealed battery? Or not.


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