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RE: Club FOX! - 7/6/2012 2:54 PM   
Cougar429


 

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Status: offline 		Earlwb, thanks for the input. I have run tuned pipes in the past and from what I could tell that muffler did not exhibit any tuning effects. Transition was smooth all the way through the throttle range. The Perry carb and pump were installed since the tank was moved aft, (this plane is notoriously nose heavy) and again, the mixture seemed fine with no bogging in flight. Until the plugs died it was rather well behaved.

NOTE: The pic shows a shaker pump and was taken much earlier. I sent pics of that installation to Gary Conley and was advised they do not work well on 2-strokes nor is vertical mounting a good orientation. Due to that I picked up a VP-30 pulse pump from him with the matched pump carb from him at Toledo. Due to the size I had to build a compartment aft of the firewall and route the pulse line directly from the back plate.

I sent another message to Fox asking for some information regarding the failure and if there is a newer style head button than the one in the pic. I also wondered about the type of failure due to the fact there was absolutely no indication of bits banging around in the combustion chamber. I took an additional pic, (with my newer camera that seems to work better for macro and low light) and included that with the pic of the head button.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/6/2012 3:15 PM   
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Status: offline 		earlwb, cougar,
My 74 head button looked different than the new one I ordered from Fox, even though my engine is newer vintage than Cougar's.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/6/2012 6:45 PM   
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Status: online 		That is interesting. Then they could have changed the head button a short time ago.
So it might be worth checking it out. Of course Cougar459 knows how to modify the head button too. So he could do the mod himself, if need be.
So then it could very likely be that the engine still has a little too much compression in it, at least for 15% nitro glow fuel.



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RE: Club FOX! - 7/6/2012 7:16 PM  1 votes
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ORIGINAL: earlwb

That is interesting. Then they could have changed the head button a short time ago.
So it might be worth checking it out. Of course Cougar459 knows how to modify the head button too. So he could do the mod himself, if need be.
So then it could very likely be that the engine still has a little too much compression in it, at least for 15% nitro glow fuel.



He probably doesn't need it since he did mention that he modified it himself per the Flight Line Solutions suggested design. I thought it would be educational for everybody to see the difference between the Flight Line Solutions design and the newest Fox design. I had to get a new head button anyway because the glow plug threads had stripped, and because I don't know jack about machining .

My engine ran ok on the ground with 15% nitro, but when in the air, it overheated badly and finally would stall after 1-2 minutes in flight. With the new head button and 5% nitro, no problems. I have some 0% nitro that I plan on trying pretty soon. If no bad effects, I will go to 0% even.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/7/2012 3:36 AM   
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Status: online 		One of our forum members "Gary Cee" was kind enough to make me a couple of Fox carburetor adapters for some other brand engines. I think he did a really excellent job as the adapter fit perfectly too. Thank you very much Gary Cee, I really appreciate it a lot too.

This allows me to use the really good Fox carb on a engine that doesn't quite have as good of a carburetor on it. In this example it is a adapter for a ASP .61 engine. The OEM carb on the engine actually works OK, but the bore is too large. Thus you have to let the engine turn higher RPMs (smaller props) and use a more restrictive muffler, that provides extra back pressure for the fuel tank, in order to get good fuel draw out of the engine. Quite a few people ran afoul of the problem of a carb bore being a little too large for the engine when they used a Pitts muffler that had a lot less muffler back pressure for the pressurizing the fuel tank. They usually had to block off one of the exhaust outlets to increase the muffler pressure for the fuel tank, but even then it may have been somewhat marginal. But by using a carburetor with a little smaller bore to it, I can get good fuel draw for the engine, and it is much less sensitive to fuel tank location and also to needing extra muffler pressure. So I have more versatility and better all around performance with the engine. Besides the Fox carburetors are really good carburetors and well worth using on engines other than Fox engines too. The cost for a Fox carburetor isn't all that bad and quite attractive cost-wise when you compare the cost to some of the other brand name carbs as well. The flange design of the carb does work really well, in that it prevents warps from causing the carb to bind when you attach the carb using clamps or screws. But the flange makes it more difficult to adapt the carb to other brand engines though.

There is a problem with the forum software that won't let these pics be displayed in the message for some odd reason. So here are the links to the pictures.
The URL link to the pictures is here s248.photobucket.com/albums/gg171/earlwbollinger/Engines/




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RE: Club FOX! - 7/7/2012 4:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		The two ASP 52's I have were also notorious for bad carbs. I replaced one with a Perry and lost it last Saturday with radio interference. As it was mounted inverted the carb body was the first to the scene of the crash and was destroyed. Gary Conley just quoted me a replacement body as all the internals were fine.

Great to see those pics and it was a lot less obtrusive than I expected.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/8/2012 3:18 AM   
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Status: offline 		Just bought another NIB Eagle IV 60 for $100 shipped. Not sure when it will get here. This one will get the head mod before firing up to correspond to the one in the far left in the pic. I was sent a PM stating that is more in line for higher nitro fuels. Since I stocked up on a LOT of 15% for this season will try and see if I can make it work.

Hopefully this week I will get the chance to do more to the existing button and have it ready for the new motor. I trimmed the top down 0.020" but the mod sheet says to lop off 0.030". Don't know how critical that would be with the full dressing of the button as it was listed with the 5-7 degree slope for the much thicker squish band. This was done to the 50BB head and it ran fine.

To be honest the Eagle IV is the largest 2-stroke in my own fleet, but I have had experience with larger heli motors getting the machines set up for others, (they like lots of nitro to begin with).

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/9/2012 10:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		Brought the button to work today and hogged it out with a 1" ball end mill. Worked perfectly to the point I suspect that is how the one in the pic is formed.

If I have time I'll fab up another button based on these dimensions for the new motor and have it ready when it arrives. At least I will have one motor ready to mount and ordering the bits from Fox can wait till the fall when flying slows down a bit.

Will have to transfer over the muffler adapter as no way to tell when I will be able to make another of those. Still trying to get at one for the second 50BB.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/10/2012 7:31 PM   
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Status: online 		I think you got it now. Yeah I would bet that they milled out the combustion chamber just like you did too.
It looks nice.



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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 4:05 AM   
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Status: offline 		I flew my plane with the Fox 74 today. I switched the prop from a 13x6 Master Airscrew to a Falcon 13x6 wood prop. I also braved it and switched fuel from 5% nitro to 0% nitro. The idle and throttle transition were surprisingly still good (I have the new TN carb and new Fox head button). The only thing is that it was running super rich, so I gradually leaned it out (LSN and HSN) by about 1/2 a turn on the HSN and 1/4 turn on LSN. Another factor in the carb adjustment may be that I just put back the MVVS seconday muffler chamber, it had come off and I modified it to have the stinger pointing down instead of straight back (so, more back-pressure on the exhaust than previously with 5% nitro).

I did get an engine stall only once when I did a throttle chop while vertical, but after leaning it a bit more, I did not get any more engine stalls (admittedly, that part still doesn't make sense to me except maybe it flooded out with that sudden throttle cut?).

Anyway, idle was 2500 rpm and WOT was 10,000 rpm. I wish I could get more at the top end, but I was worried about overheating and leaning out. I am running an MVVS Quiet Muffler, which gives approximately the same performance as the Fox muffler, but a lot quieter.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 1:44 PM   
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Status: online 		Sounds good to me. It'll do better later after you get some time on the engine and get it run in good.
Hard to say on the chop throttle and die effect. I have sat on the ground trying to duplicate it a number of times and it wouldn't do it on the ground, but only in the air every now and then. So it might have sucked a air bubble or something in the air at just the right moment.



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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 3:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		If the 0% nitro fuel works out, I would be in good shape. A buddy of mine bought a whole bunch of 0% and 5% fuel from a LHS last year that was dumping them for half price. He would sell them to me for that half-price, $5/gallon. If it works out, I will be flying this plane a LOT. The 5% fuel he has is all-synthetic, so I can't use it on the Fox without adding some castor oil to it. But that might make it too oily? I could use the 5% all-synthetic on my other engines, maybe the Super Tigres and Irvine.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 4:10 PM   
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Status: online 		Since I run most all of my engines off of 5% nitro glow fuel, it won't be a problem. I only have a few that need 15% nitro or more in them, and I don't use them at this time anyway.  Albeit the little 1/2a engines like 20% or 25% nitro though.
It isn't a problem to add a couple, three, or four ounces of castor oil, to the fuel with all synthetc oil in it. Good insurance for those occasional lean runs.
The other engines won't care either.



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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 9:40 PM   
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Status: offline 		Sharon at Fox notified they would like to have a look at the motor. Still waiting for a reply asking if my head mod would be a negative and how much of the motor they need back, (ie, stock carb, muffler, etc.). Hoping to leave the muffler here as that would save some shipping costs.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 10:06 PM   
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ORIGINAL: Cougar429

Sharon at Fox notified they would like to have a look at the motor. Still waiting for a reply asking if my head mod would be a negative and how much of the motor they need back, (ie, stock carb, muffler, etc.). Hoping to leave the muffler here as that would save some shipping costs.

Cougar, I know that when they test run the engines at Fox Man., they run them with no muffler, 11x8 prop, and low/no nitro with lots of castor. So, maybe the muffler is not necessary for shipping, unless they specifically ask for it.

When I had trouble with my engine, they asked for me to send it in also. But in my case, I knew I needed a new head button anyway since the glow plugs stripped. So I decided to try changing it myself first and if that didn't work, then send it in.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 10:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		What was the determination when you sent your in?

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/13/2012 11:43 PM   
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What was the determination when you sent your in?

I ended up not needing to send mine in because the engine started to work well when I switched to the new head button and 5% nitro instead of 15%. But they (Fox Man.) suggested to send it in so they could see why my engine was stalling in the air (but not on the ground). But in the end, not needed.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/14/2012 1:23 AM   
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Status: online 		I think you need more run in time on the engine. They can sometimes take longer than one might think they should. Many people only run a tank or two through the engine and think that will do it for break in, but the engines are designed to wear out very slowly, so they need a longer break in time.

 Now as to performance, it can be difficult matching the RPM numbers that some get. Fox typically used a Top Flite wood prop. They used a well broken in engine with maybe a couple three gallons of fuel run through it too. Plus for the Coup de Gras, Duke Fox would tend to use Missile Mist fuel too. The Master Airscrew prop loads the engine more than the Top Flite prop did, so it won't turn the same RPMs. Worst is the muffler, the stock OEM muffler can cost 1,500 to 2,000 RPMs off the top end. That was one reason I liked using a tuned muffler setup instead, such as the Performance Specialties Ultrathrust muffler, or a Jett Sport Muffler or a Rossi Muffler even.  But your RPM numbers being over 10K rpms is what I was getting using 5% and the stock OEM muffler. Now I could push to 14,000 RPMs with a Ultrathrust muffler and 5% nitro flow fuel and a 11x7 prop.

As a matter of interest was just about all of the .60 and .61 engines I have bench run were all running about the same RPMs at around 10,500 to 11,000 RPMs using stock OEM more restrictive mufflers. So that is why I think your engine is running OK.



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RE: Club FOX! - 7/14/2012 4:28 AM   
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I think you need more run in time on the engine. They can sometimes take longer than one might think they should. Many people only run a tank or two through the engine and think that will do it for break in, but the engines are designed to wear out very slowly, so they need a longer break in time.

 Now as to performance, it can be difficult matching the RPM numbers that some get. Fox typically used a Top Flite wood prop. They used a well broken in engine with maybe a couple three gallons of fuel run through it too. Plus for the Coup de Gras, Duke Fox would tend to use Missile Mist fuel too. The Master Airscrew prop loads the engine more than the Top Flite prop did, so it won't turn the same RPMs. Worst is the muffler, the stock OEM muffler can cost 1,500 to 2,000 RPMs off the top end. That was one reason I liked using a tuned muffler setup instead, such as the Performance Specialties Ultrathrust muffler, or a Jett Sport Muffler or a Rossi Muffler even.  But your RPM numbers being over 10K rpms is what I was getting using 5% and the stock OEM muffler. Now I could push to 14,000 RPMs with a Ultrathrust muffler and 5% nitro flow fuel and a 11x7 prop.

As a matter of interest was just about all of the .60 and .61 engines I have bench run were all running about the same RPMs at around 10,500 to 11,000 RPMs using stock OEM more restrictive mufflers. So that is why I think your engine is running OK.



ok, thanks Earl. I will try to see if it could be leaned out a bit more this weekend. But other than that, I will start thinking about a high performance muffler.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/17/2012 7:07 PM   
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Status: online 		Hi Guys. I’ve just broken in a Fox 60 and have almost half a gallon of 10% fuel through it. It runs well. Depending on where I place my Glo-Bee tack on the propeller arc I get between 9000 to 20000 rpm. That was the biggest waste of good money I’ve ever spent! Anyway, the engine is beginning to throttle well, but if I let it sit a moment and then throttle up, the engine stalls. It will re-start with a single flip. I think I need a new glow plug. So what is the best glow plug for the 60? Do I need a hot or a cold plug? Should I get a plug with or without an idle bar? I’ve read a little of the tread so I think the Fox Pro #8 would be best. I have to buy some new plugs and I wonder what you guys might recommend for this engine. I have the new Fox muffler and head button. I haven’t adjusted the low speed needle (yet). It does throttle nicely unless I let it idle too long. I’ve adjusted the throttle using the pinch test on the fuel line. There is no loss of RPM when I remove the igniter.

My second question is regarding the muffler. I’m using a brand new fox muffler. But, it is still too loud. Searching the web, I can’t seem to find a third party muffler that is a direct replacement. Is anyone using a macs or jett muffler that is a direct fit? Who has the quietest muffler? Any recommendations on third party mufflers?

I'm getting this engine ready for a Sig Hog Bipe.


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RE: Club FOX! - 7/17/2012 9:57 PM   
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Status: online 		For the .60 and .74 engines you can use a MVVS muffler to good effect. You might have to use a jeweler's file on the holes if they drilled the holes too small as the center to center hole distance is about 1mm different between the engines. The Rossi mufflers can also be used on the Fox engines too.  Rossi USA sells a bridge adapter that lets you adapt other mufflers like a OS 61SF muffler and mufflers of that size to fit the Fox engines as well (plus you could use the Bridge adapter with a Jett muffler for the OS engines too).  I think Bisson still sells a sports muffler for the Rossi or MVVS engines that would work as well as the various Pitts mufflers too.
Macs mufflers also sell their One piece and Sportsman's mufflers and tuned pipe headers too.






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RE: Club FOX! - 7/17/2012 11:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		i have fixed some eng. wos with the enya plugs #3 or #4. they're a little spendy but then so are our planes!!!!!! they are great plugs.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/20/2012 1:34 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thought I would show what a couple of hours can accomplish with the right tools.

I had the chance to whack away at a pair of new heads for the Eagle IV today and the results are shown in the pic.

On the right is the original head with a bit of hogging out. I raised the deck height so there would be more room between the top of the piston and squish band around the outside. That deck height on the next two is stock.

In the middle is one with a straight cup formed with a 1 1/2" ball nose end mill and the pocket is correspondingly a bit shallower.

The left has a combi of the center dug with a 3/4" ball nose end mill and then rounded out with the 1 1/2". The two cuts were then blended out to form a kind of double hemi. Each will be tested with the new motor when it arrives and I will try and do rapid changes with a tach reading for each. Will be interesting to see how they turn out.

Note. The plug mount face on all 3 have been dropped 0.015 as per the mod.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/20/2012 7:52 PM   
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Status: offline 		ihave bad problem with my new fox .25
runs great on the ground but goes lean on air?? os .25fx runs great with same plane.
front bearing leaking oil too.
fuel 15%nitro 13%klotz and 5% castor
prop apc 9x5
plug os8

tomorrow i try 20%castor/10%nitro fuel.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/20/2012 8:43 PM   
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Status: online 		It might be still not run in good yet. You likely need to run it a little more rich. Depending on when the engine is made, it may not quite like too much nitromethane in the fuel.  The Fox engines do not have a sealed front bearing so they allow the engine oil to ooze out the front to help cool and lubricate the front hearing. So it is normal for the engine to ooze oil out of the front.

Fox was exploring using sealed bearings but I don't know if they were able to get bearings that meet their specifications yet or not. So as far as I know the engines all still have open front bearings.

I don't remember running fuel with more than 5% nitro in my .25 engines so far.



< Message edited by earlwb -- 7/20/2012 9:29 PM >

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