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RE: Club FOX! - 7/20/2012 8:45 PM

earlwb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cougar429
Thought I would show what a couple of hours can accomplish with the right tools.
I had the chance to whack away at a pair of new heads for the Eagle IV today and the results are shown in the pic.
On the right is the original head with a bit of hogging out. I raised the deck height so there would be more room between the top of the piston and squish band around the outside. That deck height on the next two is stock.
In the middle is one with a straight cup formed with a 1 1/2" ball nose end mill and the pocket is correspondingly a bit shallower.
The left has a combi of the center dug with a 3/4" ball nose end mill and then rounded out with the 1 1/2". The two cuts were then blended out to form a kind of double hemi. Each will be tested with the new motor when it arrives and I will try and do rapid changes with a tach reading for each. Will be interesting to see how they turn out.
Note. The plug mount face on all 3 have been dropped 0.015 as per the mod.

That is some really good work on those head buttons. It is looking really nice.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/20/2012 9:29 PM

fujiman

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some engs. that run an ''open'' frt. brg. and spit out the messy oil thing can be helped a lot by removing the crank shaft (complete tear down ness.) and the main bearings and then take an engraving gouge and make a very small grove from just behind the front brg. to the rear brg. in the bore of the crank case opposite the carb intake. be careful not to go TOO deep with the channel tho or you will have a very big air leak you just want a channel that will suck fuel/oil back into the eng., keep around .002'' to .004'' deep. this will help clean up the excess fuel/oil being forced out the front. because of machining various tolerances some engs. are worse then others. the air leak you create by this ''little channel can be adjusted out by enriching the hi and low mix screws. so at this point either take things into your own hands and make the modif. or put up with mess!!!!!!

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/21/2012 9:26 AM

s�rpet

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engine is under 1year old,runing in time was about 1L fuel and now 20flight.
3/4throttle it run better but full throttle mixture gets go lean and high G manouvers it almost quit.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/21/2012 12:13 PM

Cougar429

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That almost sounds like a tank position problem. Is the centerline of the tank level with the centerline of the carb body? Are the fuel lines too long and flapping around? If so then they can move under flight loads changing position and perhaps closing off during hard maneuvers.

You may also want to check one thing that drove me nuts trying to find. Too flexible a fuel pickup line in the tank can partially collapse from muffler pressure at high throttle settings, starving the motor for fuel. Go to a thicker and less flexible line as an experiment if all else fails.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/21/2012 6:50 PM

s�rpet

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plane was my old "workhorse" 1:12 seiran aces combat plane, os.25fx and asp.25 work perfectly,but fox not want to work.

ithink that proplem might be too low pressure in tank? fox muffler exit hole is much bigger than os or asp??

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/22/2012 4:09 AM

Cougar429

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The exit hole is a factor of exhaust gas volume. If the muffler is much larger the gas has time to cool and reduce in volume. This would require a smaller outlet. Sometimes pressure outlet position on the muffler body can make a difference in how well the tank is pressurized by the exhaust pulses, but I found a much greater effect on baffled mufflers when that baffle is removed.

Have you broken in the motor? Have you then installed a new glow plug? By its very nature break in produces microscopic metal particles, (often indicated by the black exhaust residue) and that can compromise the glow element. It will heat fine when under external power, but the catalytic fuel action will not work very well, if at all. I can vouch for this by what I reported recently with my new Eagle IV.

I still suspect a fuel starvation issue. The other engines just may not have been so sensitive, (and most new motors are this way) so the Fox simply may need more running time. As with many posts here, Fox motors usually require a MUCH longer break in procedure, but if done properly that also contributes to longevity. From my own experience my Fox cylinders outlast just about anything else I've owned.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/22/2012 5:32 AM

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quote:

tomorrow i try 20%castor/10%nitro fuel.

Good Idea. Lapped iron piston engines need all castor oil for a good seal and lube. They will act like they are leaning out when they run for a while if using synthetic fuel.

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RE: Club FOX! - 7/25/2012 3:25 AM

Cougar429

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NIB Eagle IV 60 showed up today. Motor would not turn over due to storage for a LONG time. Still had the acceptance tag on the prop shaft, so assume the goop was from their test runs.

Popped the top and cylinder off and worked in some air tool oil to loosen everything up and freed up the ring. Smooth as silk now and along with the Perry carb it has one of the new head buttons installed.

Some other projects on the build table right now, but I will get to mounting and firing this one up as soon as possible.

Should be looking to send the first motor back to Fox soon. Still waiting for a reply on how much they want included.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/4/2012 2:56 AM

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I have acquired a FOX .35 Stunt engine.

It is in good shape but needs a Needle Valve Assembly. Any suggestions of a good place to pick one up?

Are there after market assemblies that may be better?

No idea how old it is, but it has great compression, no doubt from being fed correct fuel. I also seems the muffler is held on with an ENYA clamp brace.

For nostalgia ... I also include some pages from a 1962 FOX product manual I was given. It is almost "as new".

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/4/2012 3:18 AM

earlwb

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You can get parts for it from Fox Manufacturing directly. Fox has made the .35's for like a jillion years now, so parts are easy to get for most of the engines, even when years old.
They have a new needle valve assembly too.
http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=166&products_id=1508
If all you need is a needle, they sell them too.
But one could use most any needle valve assembly they wanted to for the most part. The Enya one would work, but you might have to enlarge the holes on the engine though.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/4/2012 4:13 AM

Cougar429

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I just received a box of engines today and there were a pair of Fox stunt engines in there. I believe one may be the 35.

I was planning to bake them in the crock pot and post pics this weekend.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/6/2012 1:18 AM

Cougar429

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Done cooking. Unfortunately the red paint on the 35 head started to come off and I just pulled a Homer and erased one of the pics. DOH!.

Here are the two. One on left is the 29 and the right is a 35. The 35 has a removable sleeve with 3 of the screws long enough to reach through to the case.

This brings up a question I do not know has been answered before; Why did Fox have such a penchant for philips screws? I would think as with all my other motors a better and more consistent tightening could be achieved with allan head cap screws. I use them for all critical fastener apps.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/6/2012 2:22 AM

dennis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fiery

I have acquired a FOX .35 Stunt engine.

It is in good shape but needs a Needle Valve Assembly. Any suggestions of a good place to pick one up?

Are there after market assemblies that may be better?

No idea how old it is, but it has great compression, no doubt from being fed correct fuel. I also seems the muffler is held on with an ENYA clamp brace.

For nostalgia ... I also include some pages from a 1962 FOX product manual I was given. It is almost ''as new''.

One of the problems with the Fox 35 is the NVA. It is too coarse a thread and settings are never consistant because it leaks and it breaks even if you hit it while flipping it. They have a new assembly that is expensive and with typical Fox engineering you have to remove it to get the engine bolt into or out of the mount. still a good thing is that you can replace every part of the engine as all of the new parts are interchangable.
There is another problem in that the Fox has a very small spraybar diameter in th choke and if you use another manufacturers set up besides having to ream the holes it will be too thick and effectively choke the engine robbing it of power it cannot afford to lose. After all the 35 is not a real power house and hasn't improved since it was introduced in 1948.
The best replacement needle valve is the Super tigre unit that is used for the 34 and the 51. It fits in and only needs a small washer to centre it. It can be turned down to the Fox spraybar diameter to keep the power level at normal. Even better is to get one From Randy Smith at Aero Products and it will be perfect for it and it also has a nylon insert in the cap to seal it and even better it holds the needle and it doesn't creep.
I'm sure that you know that the case is fragile and using a clamp to hold the muffler on is really iffy if not done right. Too tight and you can reall have a bad running engine. There are better ways to mount a muffler on that old engine.
did the MVVS 09'yet.

Dennis

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/6/2012 4:43 AM

earlwb

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That is odd, I do not remember ever having a problem with the needle valve or assembly before when I flew CL years ago. I do remember breaking off the needle in a crash though. But I didn't break any when I flipped the prop. My engines used the flat blade needle valve and it didn't have any false needle setting effects like one gets with a round tapered needle. But I would agree that they should have used a more fine thread or a different needle taper so it had a more fine adjustment to it. I remember as a kid using a piece of aluminum bent over to form a Vee and I used a screw and nut to make a crude remote needle for one of my engines when I had a broken needle. I left the broken needle in the engine and used the remote clamp to fine tune it. It worked pretty good and I flew it like that for quite a while too.

< Message edited by earlwb -- 8/6/2012 1:15 PM >

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/6/2012 1:33 PM

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I have asked a couple of Fox employees about the Phillips screws, they told me hex head screws were about 3 times as expensive as the Phillips head screws. When I had to disassemble a Fox engine, I always went back with hex head screws. It was hard to tighten up a Phillips screw after a couple of times loosening it. If you replace nothing else, make it the head part. Then you can be sure to get them torqued down enough to prevent the head from leaking.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/13/2012 1:41 AM

hsukaria

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I got to fly my plane with the Fox 74 Eagle IV today. But I switched the prop from 13x6 to 12x8. I still ran 0% nitro. Ran beautifully. It seems to run smoother, more power, and even more vertical with the 12x8 compared to the 13x6. It did look goofy with the smaller prop while parked, but flew better.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/13/2012 9:15 PM

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I have a problem with my Fox .74 Eagle IV. First general information:

1. The engine is mounted in a GP Escapade 61. It is mounted upright with the entire engine cylinder sticking out of the cowling. The standard Fox tilt up muffler is used. It came with the new style carb.

2. The prop is an APC 12x7 sport prop.

3. Omega 10% fuel is used.

4. A 14 ounce tank is used with the spray bar about a 1/2 inch above the the center line of the tank. The tank is about 2 inches behind the engine.

5. Two 14 ounce tanks of fuel were run through the engine on the test stand for initial break in.

6. The plane has 20 flights on it averaging 8 minutes per flight. The first 6 were a rich two cycle just flying the pattern and figure eights. I have found that Fox engines take longer to break in.

7. I am using a Fox long RC plug with idle bar. The original glow plug is still in use.

8. The engine has never caused a deadstick in flight.

Now the problem. With the engine still set fairly rich it will sag at the top of loops and during rolls but has always come back when the plane is level again. Upon landing, the engine is very hot, much hotter than I have experienced with other engines.

I have check all of the fuel tubing, both in side and out side the tank. I even replaced it after 10 flights. The fuel pick up tube has a brass tube in the center to prevent the clunk from moving to the front of the tank.

I talked to Fox about using 10% nitro fuel and they said it would not be a problem. In fact that it is what they use to test run each engine.

Any thoughts on what is causing the saging and over heating? I have been using Fox engines since the mid '50s and have never run into a problem like this.

Bruce

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 2:38 AM

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I would start with using either lower nitro fuel or a colder plug. Sounds like overheating from detonation to me. Assuming that you are not running too lean. The Fox idle bar is not the correct plug. With 10% nitro I would use the Fox #8, with FAI fuel the Fox RC long without idle bar would be good.

Might try raising the tank level a bit. Maybe with the centerline 1/4" below the spray bar or even. But I doubt it would get rid of your problem though it may help.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 1:01 PM

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It sounds like it is still being set a little too lean on the needle, and as the fuel tank drains it leans out a little too much and overheats.
You can try filling the fuel tank about 1/4 to 1/3 full and adjust the needle for the engine to run good like that, then fill up the fuel tank and see how it does.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 2:44 PM

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My Fox 50 runs hot on 10% fuel, even with a cold plug. This and other FAI fuel engines run fine on a test stand with 10% fuel, but need 5% or even FAI fuel in the air. The Fox person he talked to probably has never flown one, just run them on a test stand. They are more sensitive to leaning out on the top of the loop and rolls when hot from detonation. So it could be that or both.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 3:03 PM

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That has been my experience with my Fox .74. It could run great with 15% nitro on the bench, but would heat up and quit in the air, even without an engine cowl installed. I switched to 0 or 5% nitro, I use Fox #8 plug (cooler), and tuned it like Earl mentioned, at 1/4 tank to make sure no leaning occurs as the tank empties. Mine is older than Landeck's, so I started out with the old head button. After switching to the new head button, it made it easier to not lean out and overheat. This engine has so much compression, you have to make sure it is set rich or else it will heat up fast.
Some may consider this engine more work to break in, but I see it as an opportunity to run without nitro and save $$$ while still maintaining power, low idle, and good throttle response.

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 3:44 PM

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Guys, thanks for your comments. The one thing I know (

) is that the needle valve is not set to lean. Right now it is set 3/4 of a turn rich below peak rpm. At this setting the engine pitch is significantly lower and the volume of oil in the exhaust is much greater than when set slightly below peak. The glow plug is the original one and its element shows no distortion like you see when an engine has been run lean. Also the engine sag occures with a full tank at the beginning of the flight as well as later in the flight. Level flight is fine for the whole tank.

My plan of attack at this point is:

1. First, change to an OS #8 plug which is the coolest plug I have but is between mid and hot range.

2. If that has no effect, I will get some 5% fuel and try that.

3. If both of those have ne effect, I am going to put an OS 75 AX in the plane. If that works then I know the fuel system is not the problem.

I will let you know how it goes. Thursday is the earliest I can get back out to the field.

Again, thanks for the comments and suggestions.

Bruce

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RE: Club FOX! - 8/14/2012 7:12 PM

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quote:

First, change to an OS #8 plug which is the coolest plug I have but is between mid and hot range.

That is a medium hot plug, what you want is a cool plug such as a Fox #8 which is cooler than a OS #8. I don't know why Fox did that their Gold plug is closer to an OS #8, just confusing.

I would switch to the lower nitro fuel first. This engine has more power than most with higher nitro fuel. I suspect, with no nitro, it will out run an OS 75 with 10% nitro. The 60 did so about a decade ago.

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RE: Club FOX! - 9/2/2012 11:18 PM

Cougar429

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Sorry to take so long, but mill problems and dealing with rebuilding Rare Bear had this one on the back burner.

I finally fired up the new 60 this afternoon and after tweaking have some numbers to post. To be truthful I must add the caveat that since this is the first tankful this has not even started breaking in yet.

However, I can list some differences found with the three modified heads.

Graupner 11 X 7 three bladed prop, 15% nitro, 18% oil

Single dome higher compression head peaked out at 8580 RPM

Double domed head of slightly lower compression was 8780

Lowest compression straight dome surprised me by hitting 9240 RPM

I went on a hunch and reinstalled head #1 and it peaked at 9200, so obviously even the short runs and cool downs were loosening it up. I did find the lowest compression head was also the least problematical, less sensitive to both LS and HS mixtures.

I need to ask if break in at this lower RPM will be adequate or should I unload the motor with a standard 2-blade prop for now?

< Message edited by Cougar429 -- 9/3/2012 1:38 PM >

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RE: Club FOX! - 9/3/2012 3:56 AM

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I don't think it really matters that much, but usually I run a regular 11x7 two blade prop to keep from loading the engine down too much.
I suspect with a higher load provided by your three blade prop, that the lower compression head would work better. The higher compression heads would make the engine prefer to run faster, as it advances the ignition timing more. Plus the higher compression heads may cause the engine to not like too much nitro (if any) in the glow fuel too.

< Message edited by earlwb -- 9/3/2012 2:56 PM >

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