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Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/23/2005 10:27:33 PM   
PlaneKrazee



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Status: offline 		Will ethanol work just as well as methanol in glow engines?

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/23/2005 10:35:26 PM   
William Robison



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Status: offline 		Brian:

I've been told ethanol will work, but you'll find it harder to get a good grade, and it will be more expensive than methanol.

Mixed with a Coke, ethanol makes a good drink. Use methanol the same way and you'll go blind.

Problem is the ATF considers ethanol (grain alcohol) to be a regulated substance, and it's taxed highly.

You can get a good grade of methanol at your local hardware store, for ethanol you go to the liquor store. Additionally, in many states and counties sales of pure grain aclohol is illegal.

Bill.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/23/2005 10:51:26 PM   
Rupurt



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Status: offline 		If you find yourself in hospital with methanol poisoning they will give you shots of ethanol(in the form of whiskey or brandy, not sure if you get to choose), ethanol is metabolised before methanol and allows you to git rid of the methanol before it is processed, well I thought it was interesting. But as you say it would only be "LESS TOXIC" than methanol but much more expensive.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 12:40:58 AM   
Dr1Driver



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Status: offline 		Why worry about it being toxic? Methanol is ok, unless you plan to bathe in it, drink it, or breathe the vapors all day long.

If it REALLY worries you, use a Haz-Mat breathing apparatus and gloves.

Dr.1

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 2:49:53 AM   
kojak41


 

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Status: offline 		Much, if not all, of the ethanol that is sold without paying the licquer tax over the counter has de-naturing agents put in it to make it impossable to drink. Don't know exactly what they are or what they might do to your glow plugs and engines.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 4:10:21 AM   
downunder



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Status: offline 		There's an interesting post in the Fuels forum http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3219478/tm.htm (post #4) about using E85 auto fuel in a 4 stroke.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 9:08:35 AM   
DarZeelon



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Status: online 		Since yhe glow plug needs the constant catalytic action, of its platinum glow element, on the fuel's methanol substrate, to retain its glow (in order to keep the engine running...), I don't think ethanol is a likely replacement for methanol.

I don't think ethanol invokes as strong a catalytic reaction and the glow plug will have to be energized full time, for the engine to run.

Shouldn't this thread be boved to the 'R/C Fuels' forum?

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 5:19:33 PM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		Most usually 5% methanol is used to denature Ethanol. I also believe the BTU content is less on Methanol. I looked up the values on Google and found a lot of variance but it was in the 20% greater BTU* in the Ethanol.

Edit to but in the figures for BTU content...

< Message edited by w8ye -- 9/24/2005 5:54:46 PM >

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 5:31:28 PM   
bhady


 

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Status: offline 		Around here there are several facilities that manufacture ethanal that is eventually used as a fuel additive for automotive use. Immediately after distilling, a low grade gasoline is added as a denaturing agent to make it unfit for consumption. Pure ethanal is highly regulated and taxed and is basically unavialable.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 5:49:10 PM   
ini


 

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Status: offline 		Ethanol contains much more energy per volume than methanol.
Because of this it necessitates different settings in carb. Also cooling effect is much lower.

I remember some guys testing ethanol appr. ten years ago with 2C engines.
The results were not very promising as the engines did run very hot and unreliably.
Maybe a constant glow plug current would help.

Anyway, why bother. In small engines fuel cost is not a factor. In bigger engines petrol and ignition are there already.

ini

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/24/2005 11:42:34 PM   
B.L.E.


 

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Status: offline 		Almost all ethanol is distilled from fermented grain or sugar. It is impossible to get absolutely pure ethanol that way. The highest percentage you can get is about 95% ethanol (190 proof) and 5% water. The reason this is so is because a mixture of 95% ethanol and 5% water has a lower boiling point than pure ethanol has. This may be the reason that ethanol does not work well in glow engines. Water contaminated methanol doesn't work very well either.

When absolutely pure ethanol is wanted, sulfuric acid is added to 95% ethanol. The water stays with the sulfuric acid and pure ethanol is boiled off in the still. Absolute ethanol is so hygroscopic that a full bottle of it will pull moisture out of the air and the contents will run over if the bottle is left open to the air.


Methanol is poisonous but it is not a cumulative poison like mercury and lead.

< Message edited by B.L.E. -- 9/24/2005 11:45:08 PM >

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/26/2005 4:40:17 PM   
chasrb



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Status: offline 		Hello Bill, I am over here looking at fuel for the Seidel ST710. Some have said to make my own since the engine requires 100% synth oil and no castor. So I have yet to find a mfg ofglow fuel that has a all synth oil with a 7% ratio to the methonal and maybe a 5-10% nitro ratio...any ideas?

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/26/2005 4:58:43 PM   
William Robison



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Status: offline 		Chas:

Methanol is also hygroscopic. That's why you can't leave the top off your fuel bottle.

Methanol can be bought at your local hardware store as "Shellac Thinner," among other names it may be labeled "Methyl Hydrate" or "Wood Alcohol." By whatever name, it's not hard to find.

In spite of the crowd yelling "NO CASTOR - NEVER" I still like a small amount. I've never had a problem because I did use castor, I strongly suspect I have avoided a few problems by continuing the use of castor oil.

Bill.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/26/2005 5:02:22 PM   
William Robison



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Status: offline 		Chas:

More on the fuel.

If you just can't bring your self to mix your own, Brian Cooper, Cooper Fuels, will mix it for you. Just remember the Feds have a nasty surcharge on shipping - they consider it a hazaedous substance.

Bill.

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RE: Ethanol less toxic substitute for methanol? - 9/26/2005 10:26:34 PM   
MJD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chasrb

Hello Bill, I am over here looking at fuel for the Seidel ST710. Some have said to make my own since the engine requires 100% synth oil and no castor. So I have yet to find a mfg ofglow fuel that has a all synth oil with a 7% ratio to the methonal and maybe a 5-10% nitro ratio...any ideas?


How about purchasing some 18% oil all synthetic fuel with 15 to 20% nitromethane, and diluting it with methanol in the ratio 61% methanol and 39% fuel? (by volume)

You would get 7% oil, 5.85% - 7.8% nitromethane, and the balance methanol.

Or 20% oil, 15-20% nitromethane, and diluting it 65% methanol to 35% fuel?

This would yield 7% oil, 5.25% - 7% nitromethane.

Mike D.