Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
11-02-2002, 03:50 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
OK folks how about this request.
By the end of the September 1940, 23 year old Ginger Lacey was the top scoring British pilot during the Battle of Britain. He is also known as the pilot that shot down the only German bomber that bombed Buckingham Palace. BTW that same HE 111 also shot his Hawker Hurricane down. So with all that you would think that there would maybe, be a picture or artist drawing of his plane, but Nooo. I have a stack of documentation 10" thick about the Hurricane and not one picture of his plane. So guys can you help? Do any of you have a picture or drawing of a Hawker Hurricane Mk.I from the 501 squadron, Gravesend; August to September 1940. The Squadron code on the side of the fuselage would be SD (national marking) G and the serial number on the fuse reads P2793. This might be a tough one.
Rip
By the end of the September 1940, 23 year old Ginger Lacey was the top scoring British pilot during the Battle of Britain. He is also known as the pilot that shot down the only German bomber that bombed Buckingham Palace. BTW that same HE 111 also shot his Hawker Hurricane down. So with all that you would think that there would maybe, be a picture or artist drawing of his plane, but Nooo. I have a stack of documentation 10" thick about the Hurricane and not one picture of his plane. So guys can you help? Do any of you have a picture or drawing of a Hawker Hurricane Mk.I from the 501 squadron, Gravesend; August to September 1940. The Squadron code on the side of the fuselage would be SD (national marking) G and the serial number on the fuse reads P2793. This might be a tough one.
Rip
11-02-2002, 05:08 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
You're right, this is a tough one.
I only have a colour 3 view of P3059, a MK I of 501 Sqn Gravesend August 1940
Sqn code on this a/c is SD-N
If it's any use I'll post it here.
--
Merlin
I only have a colour 3 view of P3059, a MK I of 501 Sqn Gravesend August 1940
Sqn code on this a/c is SD-N
If it's any use I'll post it here.
--
Merlin
11-03-2002, 09:33 AM
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Laceys Hurricane
Merlin/Jeff
If you have some addional information, please could you post it here?.....The reason I ask, is that, I am working with Bob, with his research, from the UK.
Lacey maybe a British hero, but I can tell you, we are having a hard time getting the info Bob needs together.
Anything you can supply will be appreciated.
Grey
If you have some addional information, please could you post it here?.....The reason I ask, is that, I am working with Bob, with his research, from the UK.
Lacey maybe a British hero, but I can tell you, we are having a hard time getting the info Bob needs together.
Anything you can supply will be appreciated.
Grey
11-03-2002, 10:56 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
F/O Lacey was in deed a low key character as there is very little about him on the web.
He was one of the very few to survive the battle of France, the battle of Britain and the war.
Not only did he shoot down the HE-111 which bombed Buckingham Palace, he also piloted the first Spitfire over Japan, and outflew two ME-109's ( he was out of ammunition) causing them to crash into each other as they converged to finish him off. (Both 109's were destroyed.) He also shared a visit with the famous Edgar "Cobber" Kain (top Battle of France Ace with 17 kills) while bombers attacked their airfield near Rouen. He served under Paddy Finucane (32 victories), with J.B. Nicholson V.C. (Only fighter pilot V.C. of the Battle of Britain) and had George "Screwball" Beurling as one of his students at an O.T.U.
--
Merlin
He was one of the very few to survive the battle of France, the battle of Britain and the war.
Not only did he shoot down the HE-111 which bombed Buckingham Palace, he also piloted the first Spitfire over Japan, and outflew two ME-109's ( he was out of ammunition) causing them to crash into each other as they converged to finish him off. (Both 109's were destroyed.) He also shared a visit with the famous Edgar "Cobber" Kain (top Battle of France Ace with 17 kills) while bombers attacked their airfield near Rouen. He served under Paddy Finucane (32 victories), with J.B. Nicholson V.C. (Only fighter pilot V.C. of the Battle of Britain) and had George "Screwball" Beurling as one of his students at an O.T.U.
--
Merlin
11-04-2002, 01:41 AM
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Ginger's Hurri
I can't believe it! Merlin 65 you are wonderful! That picture is great. May I ask the source of that drawing? I have been looking everywhere for something that shows a picture of Lacey's Hurricane and here you are to save the day. God bless you Merlin. It is hoped that I will be able to compete at the Scale Masters in 2003 but without good documentation my chances would be poor. Forums like this are worth their weight in gold. Thank you once again for helping me. I would be glad to post or send you pictures of my project as it progresses if you would be interested.
Rip
Rip
11-04-2002, 01:59 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
Hi Bob,
I can't honestly remember where I got that artwork. I just collected every warbird book over the years and this one comes from a loose page in the stack and is blank on the reverse side. (which is why the scan is so good)
I would love to see pictures as your Hurri progresses. How about some more detail?
Plans? Power? Size?
Will continue searching for more detail of this aircraft, there MUST be a photo out there somewhere
Meanwhile, have you seen the latest restored Hurri?
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aircraft/mkii.htm
--
Merlin
I can't honestly remember where I got that artwork. I just collected every warbird book over the years and this one comes from a loose page in the stack and is blank on the reverse side. (which is why the scan is so good)
I would love to see pictures as your Hurri progresses. How about some more detail?
Plans? Power? Size?
Will continue searching for more detail of this aircraft, there MUST be a photo out there somewhere
Meanwhile, have you seen the latest restored Hurri?
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aircraft/mkii.htm
--
Merlin
11-04-2002, 02:43 AM
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Hurricane Picture
Merlin,
Sure thing, I would be glad to send pictures. Would you mind scanning the picture again and sending the file to my email account? When I blow the image up to 8.5 x 11 the resolution drops off. If it's any problem please do not bother.
The plane started out as an old Mick Reeves kit that I have scaled up quite a bit. It was an 80" wing span and I looking to power it with a Super Tiger 90. A lot depends on what the finished weight turns out to be. Right now it weighs 12.5 lbs but will probably take 2.5 lbs of nose weight to balance it. So the engine is still a question mark. Everything works including landing, navigation lights, and sliding canopy. The project has about 660 hour invested so far but I’m on the home stretch.
Pilot Lacey was painted on Saturday. I’ll try to send pictures of him tomorrow.
Rip
Sure thing, I would be glad to send pictures. Would you mind scanning the picture again and sending the file to my email account? When I blow the image up to 8.5 x 11 the resolution drops off. If it's any problem please do not bother.
The plane started out as an old Mick Reeves kit that I have scaled up quite a bit. It was an 80" wing span and I looking to power it with a Super Tiger 90. A lot depends on what the finished weight turns out to be. Right now it weighs 12.5 lbs but will probably take 2.5 lbs of nose weight to balance it. So the engine is still a question mark. Everything works including landing, navigation lights, and sliding canopy. The project has about 660 hour invested so far but I’m on the home stretch.
Pilot Lacey was painted on Saturday. I’ll try to send pictures of him tomorrow.
Rip
11-04-2002, 03:04 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
Bob,
I love detailed work like that!
I remember now, we were posting instrument panels in another thread a while back
The scan I posted is as large as my cheap scanner can handle but I do have some sophisticated resizing software that will do the job. Will post this to you asap.
I'm sure you've seen "Super detailing the Hurricane" on Strictly Scale site but in case you haven't:
http://www.strictlyscale.com/hurricane.htm
--
Merlin
I love detailed work like that!
I remember now, we were posting instrument panels in another thread a while back
The scan I posted is as large as my cheap scanner can handle but I do have some sophisticated resizing software that will do the job. Will post this to you asap.
I'm sure you've seen "Super detailing the Hurricane" on Strictly Scale site but in case you haven't:
http://www.strictlyscale.com/hurricane.htm
--
Merlin
11-04-2002, 03:49 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
Rip,
The model is looking great, keep up the good work. I looked through everything I have on Hurricanes and Battle of Britain... which is considerable! I found a photo of Lacey climbing into a Spit and also a photo of a couple of Hurri's from 501 Sq. taking off, but neither were his. I agree with Merlin, there has to be a photo somewhere.
I went through quite a bit of what you are going through doing a 109. I found several photos of the a/c I wanted to do, but was looking for more and had something happen to me that was so incredible, I still don't believe it. My good friend and noted Aviation Artist Jerry Crandall was sitting in an airport lobby and struck a conversation with an elderly couple sitting beside him. Turns out that the gentleman was a German war correspondant and had a trunk full of aircraft photos and movies he had taken during the war. It just so happened he covered JG 27 out in the deserts of North Africa and had taken several photos of the very aircraft that I was modeling flown by Oblt Muncheburg! How unbelievable is that! Jerry shot copy photos of what he had on a later arranged visit and I was lucky enough to get copies of the photos. The moral of the story...never give up and leave no stone unturned!
The model is looking great, keep up the good work. I looked through everything I have on Hurricanes and Battle of Britain... which is considerable! I found a photo of Lacey climbing into a Spit and also a photo of a couple of Hurri's from 501 Sq. taking off, but neither were his. I agree with Merlin, there has to be a photo somewhere.
I went through quite a bit of what you are going through doing a 109. I found several photos of the a/c I wanted to do, but was looking for more and had something happen to me that was so incredible, I still don't believe it. My good friend and noted Aviation Artist Jerry Crandall was sitting in an airport lobby and struck a conversation with an elderly couple sitting beside him. Turns out that the gentleman was a German war correspondant and had a trunk full of aircraft photos and movies he had taken during the war. It just so happened he covered JG 27 out in the deserts of North Africa and had taken several photos of the very aircraft that I was modeling flown by Oblt Muncheburg! How unbelievable is that! Jerry shot copy photos of what he had on a later arranged visit and I was lucky enough to get copies of the photos. The moral of the story...never give up and leave no stone unturned!
11-04-2002, 03:48 PM
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Hurricane Pic Wing
Hello Jeff & Merlin 65,
Thank you both for your postings and links. Some I have visited before but others are new to me.
Merlin, my best e-mail to send that file is [email protected] but [email protected] will also work. Once again, thank you for your help. Yes, we did post before under that cockpit detail thread and the search for Ginger Lacey’s specific plane may have been a blessing in disguise. While pursuing this search I turned my attention back to the inside the cockpit to add even more detail thanks to a new book that I just received a week ago. “The Hawker Hurricane” A Comprehensive Guide For The Modeler is a great book that I wish I had at the beginning of this project, but isn’t just the way life works out. Anyway, I have been spending more time on the port and starboard cockpit walls.
Jeff, what a great story it is amazing where information on a project will pop up. One of the first books I bought for this project was Ginger Lacey’s book. It is a great read with pictures but none of his Hurricane. However, it did have a picture of his open logbook and that is how I found that that specific plane was SD-G. So the clues for this mystery started here. If everything turns out as I hope I think I’ll bring this model to Toledo in 2003.
Here is a picture of the left wing and fuselage as it looks today.
Thank you both for your postings and links. Some I have visited before but others are new to me.
Merlin, my best e-mail to send that file is [email protected] but [email protected] will also work. Once again, thank you for your help. Yes, we did post before under that cockpit detail thread and the search for Ginger Lacey’s specific plane may have been a blessing in disguise. While pursuing this search I turned my attention back to the inside the cockpit to add even more detail thanks to a new book that I just received a week ago. “The Hawker Hurricane” A Comprehensive Guide For The Modeler is a great book that I wish I had at the beginning of this project, but isn’t just the way life works out. Anyway, I have been spending more time on the port and starboard cockpit walls.
Jeff, what a great story it is amazing where information on a project will pop up. One of the first books I bought for this project was Ginger Lacey’s book. It is a great read with pictures but none of his Hurricane. However, it did have a picture of his open logbook and that is how I found that that specific plane was SD-G. So the clues for this mystery started here. If everything turns out as I hope I think I’ll bring this model to Toledo in 2003.
Here is a picture of the left wing and fuselage as it looks today.
11-04-2002, 03:59 PM
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Pilot Ginger Lacey
Ginger Painted and ready to install. Note that I will have to insert most of my pilot in the cockpit first then his left arm for attachment. The cockpit is so tight it's going to be like building a ship in a bottle.
11-04-2002, 06:27 PM
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Hurricane Book
I'm sorry but whoever requested a source for that Hawker Hurricane book I deleted your email. I got mine from Signal Squadron. However, this a pretty popular book and they sell out of it often. I think it was about $25.00
Rip
Rip
11-04-2002, 07:59 PM
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Re: Hurricane Picture
Originally posted by bobripley
Merlin,
Sure thing, I would be glad to send pictures. Would you mind scanning the picture again and sending the file to my email account? When I blow the image up to 8.5 x 11 the resolution drops off. If it's any problem please do not bother.
The plane started out as an old Mick Reeves kit that I have scaled up quite a bit. It was an 80" wing span and I looking to power it with a Super Tiger 90. A lot depends on what the finished weight turns out to be. Right now it weighs 12.5 lbs but will probably take 2.5 lbs of nose weight to balance it. So the engine is still a question mark. Everything works including landing, navigation lights, and sliding canopy. The project has about 660 hour invested so far but I’m on the home stretch.
Pilot Lacey was painted on Saturday. I’ll try to send pictures of him tomorrow.
Your Hurricane really looks nice...I love the detail work...that's what you need to do to compete at the Masters/Top Gun, ect level. I hope your Hurri flies better than my Vailly Hurricane. Mine weighs in at nearly 40 pounds (92 inch wing span) and is powered with a 3W 60 gas engine....Mine won't flare, however and is now sitting with a busted wing because I can't seem to find the sweet spot to balance the plane at....it either nose dives straight into the ground (when coming in too slow) or balloons up (when too fast). I have another frined who built a Vailly Hurri and experienced the exact same problem...he sold the plane to another fellow that had the same problem after shifting the CG...tough problem to figure out and solve....
Rip
Merlin,
Sure thing, I would be glad to send pictures. Would you mind scanning the picture again and sending the file to my email account? When I blow the image up to 8.5 x 11 the resolution drops off. If it's any problem please do not bother.
The plane started out as an old Mick Reeves kit that I have scaled up quite a bit. It was an 80" wing span and I looking to power it with a Super Tiger 90. A lot depends on what the finished weight turns out to be. Right now it weighs 12.5 lbs but will probably take 2.5 lbs of nose weight to balance it. So the engine is still a question mark. Everything works including landing, navigation lights, and sliding canopy. The project has about 660 hour invested so far but I’m on the home stretch.
Pilot Lacey was painted on Saturday. I’ll try to send pictures of him tomorrow.
Your Hurricane really looks nice...I love the detail work...that's what you need to do to compete at the Masters/Top Gun, ect level. I hope your Hurri flies better than my Vailly Hurricane. Mine weighs in at nearly 40 pounds (92 inch wing span) and is powered with a 3W 60 gas engine....Mine won't flare, however and is now sitting with a busted wing because I can't seem to find the sweet spot to balance the plane at....it either nose dives straight into the ground (when coming in too slow) or balloons up (when too fast). I have another frined who built a Vailly Hurri and experienced the exact same problem...he sold the plane to another fellow that had the same problem after shifting the CG...tough problem to figure out and solve....
Rip
11-05-2002, 12:29 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
Bob, that's a great looking pilot but sorry, he doesn't look anything like Ginger Lacey
Here's 2 more great looking Hurri models:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri2.html
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri1.html
You may also like the ancient pic attached which shows SD-N & SD-T taking off from Hawkinge on August 15 1940.
SD-N is being flown by K.N.T. Lee but I don't know who is in SD-T.
LA7, 40lbs for a Hurricane does sound a bit heavy. I know of a 81" Spitfire that flies at 10lbs. Read about it here:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/test5.html
I know this is controversial but to my mind, 1/5 scale warbirds weighing 30 lbs plus and needing 60cc engines to drag them around just isn't aeromodelling as I came to know it. Just my H.O.
--
Merlin
Here's 2 more great looking Hurri models:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri2.html
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri1.html
You may also like the ancient pic attached which shows SD-N & SD-T taking off from Hawkinge on August 15 1940.
SD-N is being flown by K.N.T. Lee but I don't know who is in SD-T.
LA7, 40lbs for a Hurricane does sound a bit heavy. I know of a 81" Spitfire that flies at 10lbs. Read about it here:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/test5.html
I know this is controversial but to my mind, 1/5 scale warbirds weighing 30 lbs plus and needing 60cc engines to drag them around just isn't aeromodelling as I came to know it. Just my H.O.
--
Merlin
11-05-2002, 03:07 AM
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Hurricaine
Rip
congratulations on great work. Please post more cockpit photos . What pilot did you use. You may also want to look at the Osprey Publications alled Hurricaine Aces.
Please post more photos when done
thanks
Mark Franke
Fairfax, Va
congratulations on great work. Please post more cockpit photos . What pilot did you use. You may also want to look at the Osprey Publications alled Hurricaine Aces.
Please post more photos when done
thanks
Mark Franke
Fairfax, Va
11-05-2002, 04:51 AM
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Hurri monsters
Rip:
Your Hurricane looks great. I built 2 Mick Reeves Hurricanes about 20 years ago and flew them in the 1982 and 83 US Scale Masters. They had a Webra .90 engine and weighed about what yours weighs. In 1990 I built Vaillencourts Hurricane and flew it in the 1992 Masters. It weighed 32 pounds. It originally had a Webra Bully 35cc on glow and later a 37 Sacks. They all flew great. Make sure you balance it with with the gear up as the gear retracts rearward and Make sure you are a little nose heavy. I t sounds like the fellow who was having landing problems may be tail heavy. I balanced all of mine in frontr of what the plans showed. All 3 of mine took off great and landed like trainer. The wing is really thick on the full size and on the models so the plane can take alot of weight. I finished mine in the 71 Eagle Squadron. My cousin, Red Tobin, was one of the first three members of the American volunteer Eagle Squadron. Two of Tobin's planes were XR-T and XR-J.
Brian
Your Hurricane looks great. I built 2 Mick Reeves Hurricanes about 20 years ago and flew them in the 1982 and 83 US Scale Masters. They had a Webra .90 engine and weighed about what yours weighs. In 1990 I built Vaillencourts Hurricane and flew it in the 1992 Masters. It weighed 32 pounds. It originally had a Webra Bully 35cc on glow and later a 37 Sacks. They all flew great. Make sure you balance it with with the gear up as the gear retracts rearward and Make sure you are a little nose heavy. I t sounds like the fellow who was having landing problems may be tail heavy. I balanced all of mine in frontr of what the plans showed. All 3 of mine took off great and landed like trainer. The wing is really thick on the full size and on the models so the plane can take alot of weight. I finished mine in the 71 Eagle Squadron. My cousin, Red Tobin, was one of the first three members of the American volunteer Eagle Squadron. Two of Tobin's planes were XR-T and XR-J.
Brian
11-05-2002, 05:39 PM
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Hurricane Project
Hello All,
I would like to thank everyone on this thread for their kind words and encouragement. Regarding how this plane might fly I plan to emulate the real one as close as possible. Especially on landing. From what I have read from pilot accounts that flew the real one the technique for landing was as follows.
Pull the throttle back to a fast idle while entering the down wind leg.
Lower the gear while on the down wind leg followed by 15 degrees of flaps.
Point the nose down and turn base and increase the flaps to 30 degrees. Keep the nose down DON”T let the plane get flat.
Turn to final add full flaps keep the nose pointed down even though it looks to steep and start pulling back on the throttle to a few notches above a low idle.
Cross the fence and start your flair. Let the plane settle in for landing.
Sounds easy doesn’t it. We will see.
Allan P. My pilot does too look like Ginger Lacey! You just have to turn the lights down low; close one eye and step back about 30’. See! It’s the spitting image of Mr. Lacey at the tender age of 23.
Mark, I have that book. It has a lot of historical information from that time period and mentions Mr. Lacey a few times. It even has an artist drawing of him. He looks like Billy Idol. I promise to send more cockpit pictures soon.
Thunderbolt I read your article in Scale R/C modeler. You’re the inspiration that made me believe that the Reeves kit could be a competitive plane. It is a pleasure meeting you. You did a great job on that project! I only hope mine flies as well as yours did.
Ripley
I would like to thank everyone on this thread for their kind words and encouragement. Regarding how this plane might fly I plan to emulate the real one as close as possible. Especially on landing. From what I have read from pilot accounts that flew the real one the technique for landing was as follows.
Pull the throttle back to a fast idle while entering the down wind leg.
Lower the gear while on the down wind leg followed by 15 degrees of flaps.
Point the nose down and turn base and increase the flaps to 30 degrees. Keep the nose down DON”T let the plane get flat.
Turn to final add full flaps keep the nose pointed down even though it looks to steep and start pulling back on the throttle to a few notches above a low idle.
Cross the fence and start your flair. Let the plane settle in for landing.
Sounds easy doesn’t it. We will see.
Allan P. My pilot does too look like Ginger Lacey! You just have to turn the lights down low; close one eye and step back about 30’. See! It’s the spitting image of Mr. Lacey at the tender age of 23.
Mark, I have that book. It has a lot of historical information from that time period and mentions Mr. Lacey a few times. It even has an artist drawing of him. He looks like Billy Idol. I promise to send more cockpit pictures soon.
Thunderbolt I read your article in Scale R/C modeler. You’re the inspiration that made me believe that the Reeves kit could be a competitive plane. It is a pleasure meeting you. You did a great job on that project! I only hope mine flies as well as yours did.
Ripley
11-05-2002, 05:50 PM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
Originally posted by Merlin65
Bob, that's a great looking pilot but sorry, he doesn't look anything like Ginger Lacey
Here's 2 more great looking Hurri models:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri2.html
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri1.html
You may also like the ancient pic attached which shows SD-N & SD-T taking off from Hawkinge on August 15 1940.
SD-N is being flown by K.N.T. Lee but I don't know who is in SD-T.
LA7, 40lbs for a Hurricane does sound a bit heavy. I know of a 81" Spitfire that flies at 10lbs. Read about it here:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/test5.html
I know this is controversial but to my mind, 1/5 scale warbirds weighing 30 lbs plus and needing 60cc engines to drag them around just isn't aeromodelling as I came to know it. Just my H.O.
--
Merlin
Bob, that's a great looking pilot but sorry, he doesn't look anything like Ginger Lacey
Here's 2 more great looking Hurri models:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri2.html
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/khurri1.html
You may also like the ancient pic attached which shows SD-N & SD-T taking off from Hawkinge on August 15 1940.
SD-N is being flown by K.N.T. Lee but I don't know who is in SD-T.
LA7, 40lbs for a Hurricane does sound a bit heavy. I know of a 81" Spitfire that flies at 10lbs. Read about it here:
http://www.modellbau.roskothen.de/docs/test5.html
I know this is controversial but to my mind, 1/5 scale warbirds weighing 30 lbs plus and needing 60cc engines to drag them around just isn't aeromodelling as I came to know it. Just my H.O.
--
Merlin
11-06-2002, 05:44 AM
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Ginger Lacey's Hurricane
LA,
I guess there will always be 2 diametrically opposed viewpoints on the wing loading issue and hopefully the two can coexist.
I simply find it intriguing that a deadstick these days seems to result in a vicious snap roll and a destroyed model whereas at one time every landing was a deadstick and radio was only to stop the aircraft from disappearing into the sunset. Bigger engines require stronger, heavier airframes which require bigger engines etc.
Anyway, I guess that's a whole new topic and probably doesn't belong here.
Bob, I plead age! Me old eyes aren't as good as they used to be. The more I look at the pic, the more it looks like him
--
Merlin (Allan)
I guess there will always be 2 diametrically opposed viewpoints on the wing loading issue and hopefully the two can coexist.
I simply find it intriguing that a deadstick these days seems to result in a vicious snap roll and a destroyed model whereas at one time every landing was a deadstick and radio was only to stop the aircraft from disappearing into the sunset. Bigger engines require stronger, heavier airframes which require bigger engines etc.
Anyway, I guess that's a whole new topic and probably doesn't belong here.
Bob, I plead age! Me old eyes aren't as good as they used to be. The more I look at the pic, the more it looks like him
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Merlin (Allan)