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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/7/2005 5:15 AM   
Couch-pilot



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Status: offline 		Count me in for a copy of the plans when you're done, thanks. This looks wicked.......

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/7/2005 6:39 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Glad to see there is interest in this project! Don't count on plans being made available until this is actually built and test flown. I want to make sure there are no weak points in the design and will be putting the airframe through its paces including hard walls, parachutes, KE spins and even harrier landings to ensure it is top notch.

Here is a small part of the project...I spent an inordinate amout of time creating those little side formers (green/purple). I basically realized that I had to remake the canopy templates into more oval at the top and round at the bottom. Reason was that those side formers would have been on the inside of the fuse box which obviously wouldn't serve much purpose. So everything got widened and that takes time. They will interlock with the side and top fuse box to keep things straight. In the end the fuse shape looks much better than before not even taking into account my miscalculation. Anyhow, these mini side-formers will be sheeted along the flat horizontal edges. I will add a couple side stringers on the rounded outsides for the outside sheeting support.

Good news otherwise...I am pretty sure this will be an incredibly fast build given how much interlocking construction there is. The fuse should practically assemble itself without having to pin it to a building board or jigging it up. The wing has been designed to be jig built using four 0.24 carbon rods. I've never trusted jig tabs.

I may take a bit of a break from this because it is getting a bit unhealthy, especially when you actually dream you are working in autocad! Scary

Cheers,

John



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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/8/2005 7:31 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Fuse is definitely on a diet!

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/8/2005 12:13 PM   
Brent G



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Status: offline 		Looks great. Where are you planning on having it laser cut? I have never looked into having that done. Do you know about how much that costs? I cut all my planes parts out with a band saw and a scrowl saw. Like you noted earlier that kind of limits how much lightning you can do. But If I could get the parts laser cut for around $50-$60 I would have it done in a second.

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/8/2005 5:02 PM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		I will be contacting AK-Models.com to get a quote from them shortly. There really isn't much point until I get the CAD done and I know how much wood I'll need. AK seems to be the only cutter I can find that can cut greater than 30" lengths which will be required for the fuselage. I have a feeling that whatever they quote for labor on top of the materials cost will be reasonable relative to how much time it would take to cut by hand. I just can't see anyone putting the fuse together without getting it laser cut since there are so many interlocking tabs and lightening involved. Even if you wanted to put in the time to cut each little tab and corresponding holes out, it would be very imprecise and the whole fuse would probably end up rather crooked. The wing, on the other hand, is pretty straight forward and could be hand cut...the only caveat being that you drill the jig holes accurately.

Cheers,

John

< Message edited by SydDythers -- 12/8/2005 5:03 PM >

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/8/2005 6:05 PM   
Brent G



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Status: offline 		Thanks. I am interested in what they will charge also.

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/9/2005 6:32 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		I'm lazy tonight so no updated pics but I have made major progress. The wing is now 99% done, all that is needed is to design in a couple ply brace supports on the forward and aft part of the root and second ribs to support the carbon fiber anti rotation pins.

After some consideration, I changed the layout of the outer fuse box lightening holes and they now conform much better to the wing, which, incidentally, I moved further forward along the fuse by about 1.75 inches which should improve the 3D capabilities of the airframe. This is a good thing in my opinion since I am designing it to be a 3D machine first, so, some precision manoevers may be less precise.

I did some reading on what this might cost to get cut and I've concluded it will cost in the $60 to $75 range, above and beyond the cost of materials. Don't hold me to it though since I've never had anything cut before.

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/9/2005 11:26 AM   
Brent G



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Status: offline 		John

I just talked to a laser cutter that is an hour from me. It will cost $100 per hour for the laser time. They told me that the balsa and light ply would cut very fast. I think you are probably pretty close on your 60-75 estimate. I would gladly pay that amount to have a plane cut. Accuracy and repeatabilaty cant be beat. There is just far to much detail to cut by hand and get the parts to come out + or - .005

Brent

< Message edited by Brent G -- 12/9/2005 11:27 AM >

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/9/2005 5:55 PM   
50%plane



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Status: offline 		SydDythers,
I'm interested in your plane also. As a general rule I don't get untested designs, but in your case I'd heavily consider it. Your design looks great.


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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/11/2005 1:44 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Coming together! Everything on the wing is done. The fuse is completely done forward of the last former. I still need to add stringers though. All that's left to do now is design the aft section of the fuse and the tail feathers.

The rendered pics don't come out all that well it seems and some of the arcs get flattend into polygons so there aren't too many smooth circles (especially the formers). The actual rendering in my autocad is perfect though. However, things are even bogging down severly on my desktop system and I have a 3.2Ghz P4 and high end graphics card. Unfortunately, you need to buy an opengl card to get good performance.

I'm getting close!

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/12/2005 4:13 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Well, in the "Two Steps Forward, One Back" department, I learned today that all plywood is metric even if a website quotes it in imperial units. Unfortunately I did the design work in imperial and will now have to convert into metric and resize some of the parts. Sigh....

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/12/2005 9:32 PM   
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Status: offline 		...nice work..one thing that I do not understand is how those pictures are rendered so bad...did you render them directly as jpeg or???
...here is mine...this is wing of my modified diablotin xl...my winter project...and fuselage is my telemaster which, I hope, will go into production next year...oh, I am using solidworks...

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/12/2005 10:01 PM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Well, as it turns out, there is imperial plywood out there afterall. However, I found this out after changing the model over to metric haha! Fortunately I saved the imperial version too. I did decide to increase the thickness of the side of fuse on both versions so that took some time. I've sourced a laser cutter near Toronto for this project (will improve turnaround for me) and they utilize imperial sized plywood, specifically, Finnish Birch which is not much heavier than lite-ply but is 5 times stronger according to them.

Tommee, your designs looks great! I can't figure out the rendering part of Autocad it seems and I have more important things to do with my time. From what I've read, rendering in Autocad is a pain and is better accomplished by exporting the model to Bryce3d or equivalent to get things looking good. Plus, the materials library in Autocad is terrible.

Cheers,

John

< Message edited by SydDythers -- 12/12/2005 10:43 PM >

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/12/2005 10:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		John,

...it is true what you said...here in europe, at least where I am we don't use acad for 3d drawing, preferred are solidworks, catia(for many superior), pro engineer..
...regarding your project it is great...continue good work..cant wait build time, i will carefully watch this tread..

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/15/2005 7:52 PM   
paf


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,

I see some of you have very nice results from Solidworks. I'm currently learning CAD software and started designing an Extra 300

I'm wondering how you split up your project - let's say a wing - do you start with a lofted surface and work your way down, or do you build it up from a spar up ? Do you create assembly with individual ribs etc, or do you keep it as a multibody part ? I don't know what's the best practice and would like to know what other people are doing.

Thanks,
Paul


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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/16/2005 4:30 AM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Ok, I am still not happy with the 3d model as of yet. I just cant seem to get the fuselage taper. The fuse starts perfectly round at the cowl and as you move further aft, it gets progressively flatter on the fuse side while staying roundish on the bottom and elliptical at the top. This is a really small but annoying problem for me because once I figure out how to do it right, everything is in place and would only take an hour to complete a new set of formers...trick is getting them consistent.

Couch pilot, I recognized your avatar from a website the provides a tutorial and link for "Conic" which is a lisp program. I played around with it a bit but got pretty frustrated and am wondering if that is your program and website. This may be the answer form me because I could fudge a couple cross sections and then use conic to interpolate between them. However, I need help! I can't believe vanilla Autocad doesn't include the ability to loft surfaces!

I intend to try and import everything (except the formers) I've completed to date into Solidworks (Tommee mentioned it as a good design platform) and try the lofting function it provides but I am worried that importing the file will introduce errors.

Maybe some of you 2D guys have suggestions on how to properly model fuselage cross sections from three views?

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/16/2005 12:18 PM   
Brent G



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Status: offline 		John

I have done the turtle deck two diferent ways. The way I prefer is making a front and rear templet and cut from foam with a hot wire. very fast and easy. The foam can be lightend up to get rid of some of the weight. The other way I have done it is built up. I start by making a former for behind the canopy. I then calculate the taper of the fuse. So many .001' narrower for every inch you travel down the fuse. I then figure how much shorter the turtle deck gets as you move back. Same process so many .001' shorter per inch you move back. After I have those constants I use the resizing handles on my drawing to make it shorter and narrower. You can also make the bottom of the fuse using the same procedure. I usually stop the turtle deck short of the vert stab and make the rest out of a solid piece of balsa or sheeted foam for extra strength.

I have not had much time to think about my design yet. Keep up the good work.

Brent

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/16/2005 3:51 PM   
paf


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SydDythers

Ok, I am still not happy with the 3d model as of yet. I just cant seem to get the fuselage taper. The fuse starts perfectly round at the cowl and as you move further aft, it gets progressively flatter on the fuse side while staying roundish on the bottom and elliptical at the top. This is a really small but annoying problem for me because once I figure out how to do it right, everything is in place and would only take an hour to complete a new set of formers...trick is getting them consistent.

Couch pilot, I recognized your avatar from a website the provides a tutorial and link for "Conic" which is a lisp program. I played around with it a bit but got pretty frustrated and am wondering if that is your program and website. This may be the answer form me because I could fudge a couple cross sections and then use conic to interpolate between them. However, I need help! I can't believe vanilla Autocad doesn't include the ability to loft surfaces!

I intend to try and import everything (except the formers) I've completed to date into Solidworks (Tommee mentioned it as a good design platform) and try the lofting function it provides but I am worried that importing the file will introduce errors.

Maybe some of you 2D guys have suggestions on how to properly model fuselage cross sections from three views?

Cheers,

John


It sure sounds like AutoCAD is not the right tool for this job. I thuogh I have problems From what you're describing, I can only recommend the switch to Solidworks. Here's my layout sketch that drives the rest of the design. It holds all the dimensions for the whole model - all other parts dimensions are driven from this automatically.

Want longer fuselage ? Drag the tip of the rudder, fix three or four broken relations, you're done.

I just learned, that all parts can have different configurations. For example vstab+rudder begins as a simple loft between 2 airfoil sketches. I then gradually cut it down while creating solid bodies in process (LE, end caps, bevels etc.). I then create 3 different configurations - one has only rudder bodies, one has only stab bodies, one has templates for foam cutting. Want to change the shape/airfoil ? Just edit the 2 basic sketches and everything gets redone right away.

P.

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/18/2005 5:40 PM   
Tommee


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: paf

Hi,

I see some of you have very nice results from Solidworks. I'm currently learning CAD software and started designing an Extra 300

I'm wondering how you split up your project - let's say a wing - do you start with a lofted surface and work your way down, or do you build it up from a spar up ? Do you create assembly with individual ribs etc, or do you keep it as a multibody part ? I don't know what's the best practice and would like to know what other people are doing.

Thanks,
Paul



Paul,

lets start with wing, if it is not tapered then I would just draw 2d sketch of the rib. After that go to assembly and build a wing. Note that we are talking about solidworks or catia, for me acad is impossible to do that properly nor it is used for that. If, like in your case, we have tapered wing then i would draw first and last rib and loft a model of the wing. After 3d model is lofted it is necessary to insert planes parallel to the first or the last rib. Of course planes must be on exactly where ribs will be. After planes are placed, select each plane and just click convert entity and you have finished ribs. And once again each part of the plane is build as assembly. Typically I have assembly of the wing, tail and fuse, and each assembly is build from INDIVIDUAL parts just like a real model.

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/18/2005 5:47 PM   
Tommee


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SydDythers

Ok, I am still not happy with the 3d model as of yet. I just cant seem to get the fuselage taper. The fuse starts perfectly round at the cowl and as you move further aft, it gets progressively flatter on the fuse side while staying roundish on the bottom and elliptical at the top. This is a really small but annoying problem for me because once I figure out how to do it right, everything is in place and would only take an hour to complete a new set of formers...trick is getting them consistent.

Couch pilot, I recognized your avatar from a website the provides a tutorial and link for !QUOT!Conic!QUOT! which is a lisp program. I played around with it a bit but got pretty frustrated and am wondering if that is your program and website. This may be the answer form me because I could fudge a couple cross sections and then use conic to interpolate between them. However, I need help! I can't believe vanilla Autocad doesn't include the ability to loft surfaces!

I intend to try and import everything (except the formers) I've completed to date into Solidworks (Tommee mentioned it as a good design platform) and try the lofting function it provides but I am worried that importing the file will introduce errors.

Maybe some of you 2D guys have suggestions on how to properly model fuselage cross sections from three views?

Cheers,

John


John,
please post a pic of your problem so I can help you. It sounds as easy fix. And yes probably loading files into solidworks will have some errors but it is easy fix. Believe me 3d airplane construction is ultimate way to go if you want quick and precise cnc cut parts.


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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/18/2005 7:14 PM   
SydDythers



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Status: offline 		Hi Tommee,

I will get a pic of my problem up a littile bit later, thanks for offering to help. I've started in on the tutorials in solidworks and the process certainly is different than Acad. I'm still trying to grasp the concept of why you need to "convert an entity" in Solidworks. Hope you'll be around to hold my hand a bit! I've tried to import some of the Acad work into Solidworks but I still haven't figured out to do once it is in there. To start, I "exploded" the side fuselage in Acad and then cut away everything except the 2D wireframe. I'd like to do that for every part and then extrude them in Soldiworks and create some assemblies. Yet still not sure how to do it. I'll keep at it and hopefully will make some progress after I finish the tutorials. The sad part is that the model is almost finished in Autocad but this damn lofting problem is holding me back!

Cheers,

John

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/18/2005 9:41 PM   
Tommee


 

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Status: offline 		Here is a fast way of defining ribs for a wing (just an example, it can be anything else).

Pic 1. Create first and last rib and define exact length between them (if it is not tapered than almost all steps can be skipped).

Pic 2. Then loft it into a full 3d body. This is a place to start from. ( Note that process that I have used for this example is very, lets say, primitive but don't doubt it. I could use something more complicated but no one would get idea how it works. Results that you will get are exact what you would get if using some complicated solidworks commands.)

Pic 3. Reference geometry, insert planes where you want your ribs to be. Define length between planes and number of planes.

Pic 4. Go into a top view.

Pic 5. In top view, draw a sketch on part of wing you would like to cut-extrude.

Pic 6. Cut-extrude it.

Pic 7. Wing cut-extruded exactly where you want a rib to be, at plane 2.

Pic 8. Select plane 2 and go into a front view.

Pic 9. Select a face of model at plane 2. Then convert entities. It is now sketch of a new rib at wanted position. Copy sketch. Select it with mouse and hit ctrl+c.

Pic 10. Go to new sketch select view (for example front) and hit ctrl+v. You have now sketch of wanted rib.

Pic 11. Extrude your rib for assembly of the wing. Repeat process for other ribs. Note: this is only for tapered wings. This sketch can directly be saved as dxf or dwg and cnc cut. Viola you have cut your ribs and can start gluing.

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< Message edited by Tommee -- 12/18/2005 9:44 PM >

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/19/2005 5:57 AM   
paf


 

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Status: offline 		Thank Tommee,

I tried it like that at first, but I came into problems when I needed some interaction between ribs and other stuff - spars, shearwebs,le,te etc.

So I started designing the whole thing as a single multi-body part instead, so I can use split, indent, subtract bodies, make offsets for skins etc. To make ribs, I convert features from the sideview sketches on both ends, loft between them, then cut with an extrude of the bottom sketch. That way, all the spar indents are under correct angles and there's a proper bevel on each rib. It will also allow me to laser cut parts with allowance for balsa sticks going into each other under weird angles.

Notice how I can determine in the sketch the amount of skin overlap on the stab I need in order to get certain amount of elevator throw - 58 degrees in this case. I can't get this amount of detail and part interaction with asemblies, but this multibody part is such a PITA to work with

P.




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< Message edited by paf -- 12/19/2005 6:16 AM >

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RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/19/2005 11:26 AM   
NJRCFLYER2


 

Posts: 495
Score: 100
Joined: 7/28/2004
Last Login: 11/8/2009
From: Randolph, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		You might want to try contacting Northeast Aerodynamics and check their rates for Laser cutting. http://www.ne-aero.com/index.html



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Ed Alt
Tech-Aero Designs

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(in reply to SydDythers)
       Post #: 74

RE: Rollin' my own 50CC Yak 54 - 12/20/2005 6:39 PM   
SydDythers



Posts: 575
Score: 100
Joined: 1/21/2002
Last Login: 10/30/2009
From: Toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Sorry for the lack of updates. Learning solidworks takes time! I've got some good news and bad news. First the bad news: I have given up trying to get this model done in Solidworks. I think I would have to start from scratch. The good news: I've figured out the fuselage tapering problem in autocad and have started reworking the shape and should have things completed in the next day or two. After that I need to design the aft internal section of the fuse and I'll be ready for this to be cut. I haven't given up on solidworks as a tool, it's just on the backburner for now.

Cheers,

John

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(in reply to NJRCFLYER2)
       Post #: 75

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