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Landing Advice - 11/16/2005 10:49:31 PM   
poppy2


 

Posts: 75
Joined: 3/30/2005
From: Simpsonville, SC, USA
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There was recently a thread here titled "Taking Off Advice". It had some excellent advice by many people who have mastered the hobby. It has been viewed by about a 1000 people and about 50 responded. As a novice, I know that I sure learned much from it. After having read it , I can take off where as before I couldn't.

How about doing the same thing with landing? For those of you that can land a plane with ease, what tips can you give a novice on landing his trainer? Thank you in advance.

Poppy2
       Post #: 1

RE: Landing Advice - 11/16/2005 11:19:08 PM   
2slow2matter


 

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Joined: 8/25/2004
From: Springtown, TX, USA
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When I was first flying, I got some instruction, but then one day I was just out flying with a buddy. After about 10 or so minutes, I told him "you know eventually you're going to have to help me land this thing." He laughed. but, what he had me to do helped me tremendously. We walked out to the edge of the runway, and I brought the plane toward the runway. What he said that helped so much was to move the aileron stick toward the low wing. So, in other words, everytime a wing started to dip, to move the aileron stick that direction until it leveled back up. That was probably the biggest thing I had to overcome--learning how to correct the roll during landing--which is when the controls are always reversed. And, when you are only feet off the ground, you certainly don't want to roll it the wrong way!

I don't know if it's adviseable for a newbie to fly a plane toward them while standing at the edge of the runway, but it worked for me. Soon after that, I was backing farther and farther away from the runway until I was landing it from behind the fence.

As for now, most of my landings are greased. I have one plane that I fight ground looping on, but other than that, it's cake. Some advice I can give is:

1) don't get too slow--you'll stall
2) keep the nose down until you are just 10 or so feet off the runway, then level it out and let it sink. Once you are a foot off the ground, flair the nose to bleed off the residual energy. Some planes handle this differnent than others, so be careful!
3) Always aim for a spot just off the end of the runway--at first, you will always overshoot your landing spot because of depth perception. If you aim for a spot just beyond the threshold, then you will most likely set it down somewhere just past the threshold.
4) When you are preparing for landing, cut your throttle to about half on the downwind leg--make sure your downwind leg is at least a few hundred feet out from the runway--so you have a decent cross-wind leg.
5) When you turn onto the crosswind (base) leg, cut your throttle a little more--to about 25%. This isn't always an exact, as every plane is different. I have planes that if I cut them to 25%, they might fall out of the sky, so be careful of this, but on your trainer it should be a good starting point.
6) Turn onto final when you are lined up with the runway, and reduce the throttle to just a couple of clicks above idle. You should turn onto your final leg at a distance of around 200 feet or so beyond the threshold. If it is a strong headwind, this distance can be greatly reduced. If there is no wind, you might want to increase it somewhat. You should be at around 150 or so feet in altitude when you start your final approach.
7) On the final leg, you should point the nose of the plane down, and let it descend to the landing spot. If you're going to be way short, give a little throttle and then back off the throttle. Use your rudder at this point to hold course. Use the ailerons to null roll only!
8) When you get about a foot off the runway, drop the throttle all the way to idle, and flair the nose by applying some up elevator. This will decrease airspeed, causing the wing to lose lift, and the plane should settle to the ground.
9) If you are going to be long, or not lined up, GO AROUND! unless you are out of fuel, there is always another chance--use it!

Some trainers won't land wtih any throttle at all. I say keep a few clicks just because it's good habbit. If your plane won't slow down enough to land, then idle it all the way down.

There are better ways to explain what I have said, and others will chime in. Take some of mine, and some of others, and put together the way YOU feel most comfortable with. Remember, it takes practice! And, there will be boo boos, just keep on trucking!

_____________________________

From a pile of sticks they are born, to a pile of sticks shall they return.

(in reply to poppy2)
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RE: Landing Advice - 11/16/2005 11:22:12 PM   
Ed_Moorman



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From: Shalimar, FL, USA
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Poppy,

Before getting into techniques, hare are some observations, things you want to do and ideas.

1. Make sure your plane sits level on the ground. 99% of the trainers have a wire gear that slowly spreads out as you practice landings. This causes the nose to sit high. Great for take offs, but if you touch the nose gear first, you are guaranteed a bounce. You need to pull the main gear together so the plane sits level. I have my students solder a piece of 1/16 wire between the gear legs so it can't spread.

2. Don't make a long pattern. Guys start having trouble and they lengthen their pattern and final approach out so they have more time. Wrong. When you land like this, most of the time you are looking head-on at the plane. This is the worst perspective to see and judge the plane's attitude. Plan to touchdown in front of yourself of past yourself. When you are past, as long as you're not too far, everything is directional and landing will be easier to judge.

3. Don't angle toward the runway. It is better to overshoot the runway a little than it is to turn too tightly and then angle in to the runway. Look at it this way, when you angle in, the plane is head on again, hard to judge. Then you need to make a correction turn down the runway when you are at low altitude. Better to fly to overshoot slightly and tighten the turn toward the end. Even if you do have to angle out a little, you are still looking at the side of the plane.

4. If you see the bottom of the plane on final, you have the nose too high. You ought to be in a descent. Keep the nose down slightly aimed for the runway until you flare.

5. Don't land out of every approach. Make an approach and, if it's a good one, land. If the approach is messed up, there is a 99% chance you'll have a bad landing so go around and do another approach. At first, you'll probably be making 1 landing for every 4 or 5 approaches.

6. If you get in a total panic and you are by yourself, throttle to idle, aim it out into the grass (hopefully you have some), keep the fuselage level and let it land itself. You'll walk away from it.

7. I like to have students do lots of low approaches before landing. If they know there is no pressure to land "this time," they seem to fly better. Do the low approach, add a few clicks of power and practice steering at slow speed down the runway before nailing it to climb out.

8. I have my students put a big wide stripe down the fuselage side if there isn't one. Something they can see on final approach. I use a head high, belt high method. When the plane is head high, about 5-6 feet, level the stripe parallel to the ground. Work the elevator to keep it level. The plane will float, then start to descend again. When it gets to belt high, 2-3 feet, use a little elevator to put the stripe slightly upwards. Very slightly, you don't want to climb. Then FREEZE. The plane will land. Trainers are supposed to land. All you'll do at the early stage is mess it up.

_____________________________

Ed Moorman, AMA 553, KD4QBM, Revver Bro #156
R/C Report Magazine, Fun Aerobatics Column

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/16/2005 11:30:51 PM   
APIA


 

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From: Roanoke, TX, USA
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I guess that landing is something that WILL happen, like the old saying "Takeoffs are optional BUT Landings are mandatory. I learned a lot of what I know from constant practice on a simulator. When I did Solo, my Instructor made me fly what seemed like 10 approaches and told me that if you fly the approach right, landings are a piece of cake. He is right and every time I fly I usually shoot at least 3 approaches. An old timer I met a while back, told me to practice a procedure which will help in case of a dead stick... First fly the normal pattern at a safe altitude, and when the airplane is across from you on down wind, cut the throttle to idle, shoot the approach, land and see how close you can you can get the airplane to your flight station. He told me that when you can do it every time then you have earned your wings. I practice this every time I fly now and the comfort level really calms the shakes.
-Tom

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 12:00:42 AM   
poppy2


 

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From: Simpsonville, SC, USA
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2slow2matter-

WOW. What a post. That is excellent information. I think one of my problems has been #6. We have to come over trees on the final and I have found myself coming in at an angle to the runway. The other day I went out to the runway and looked at the trees that were straight down the center of the runway, located them and when coming in for the final came over them and it sure did make it much easier. Also #9. If you don't like what you see, go around. Don't know why I thought I had to land regardless what things looked like. Also #8. I am working on that flair at about one foot. Some are better then others. #7, you say to use the rudder to hold course and the ailerons to null roll. That I need to work on. I was total ignorant of that information. I use the ailerons to do both. What a post. I want to give you a 10 10 10 for that help. Thanks a lot,


Poppy2

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 12:45:39 AM   
feep



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From: pelham, NH, USA
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I was told by an old timer that as the plane loses airspeed the LAST function it loses is rudder. When making your approach use ailerons to keep your wings level (Stick to the low wing if it is comming toward you) and rudder to make directional corrections.
If you are learning to fly and learning to land is part of that process, than it stands to reason that you will be making a few not so pretty landings. GET RID OF THE NOSE WHEEL AND MAKE IT A TAIL DRAGGER. Rough landings with a nose wheels cause linkedge problems, nose wheel problems, fire wall problems, noseovers that break props and all of these require maintainene that interferes with flying. I would suggest getting an oversized pair of wheels to make your ground handeling a little easier and practice landings untill they are second nature.

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 12:48:11 AM   
poppy2


 

Posts: 75
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From: Simpsonville, SC, USA
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Ed Moorman-

Thanks for your reply. I didn't think that I would get this response this fast. There is so much good information coming in. I have a Hobbieco Superstar 40. The wire wheels are a pain in the neck. They flop down after a few landings and I have solved that problem. I came down 3 inches from the fuse on each wire and put a wheel collar on at that point. I ran some strong wire across the two and pulled them up to were the plane was level. It has worked well so far. It also makes take off much better with the plane level.

I do tend to make the approach long but I don't have a lot of problems trying to keep the wings level when it is coming toward me. One of the few things that seems easy for me. Wing tips, move the stick in that direction to correct. Coming in at an angle has been a problem but I have solved that. Read my second post here.

I do have to practice low approaches and go arounds. No pressure there and much to learn.

I like your head high and belt high. What I have shoot for in the past is to be about 5 feet above the end of the runway, level out at about 2 to 3 feet and flair at 1 foot. Then don't forget to steer the plane after touch down. Maybe I am a little off with my levels here,

Thanks for great information.


Poppy2

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 4:13:54 AM   
2slow2matter


 

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The key is that every plane will react differently at landing speeds. Some of my planes would stall and die if I were to try and level them out at 10 feet. I have to keep them flying all the way to flair--inches off the deck. However, trainers are very forgiving, and you can get away with pretty much anything short of completely stalling it.

_____________________________

From a pile of sticks they are born, to a pile of sticks shall they return.

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 4:45:30 AM   
BWooster



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From: Edmonton, AB,
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I think the biggest mistake beginners make is too much elevator control, not enough throttle control.

This means, if your short, add throttle, not up elevator. If you are long, either abort , or chop the throttle and slip or slide (not recommended for beginners!).

Next time you are in an airliner, listen to the engines as the pilot flies the final approach. It's all in the throttles. Our airplanes are no different.

Also, practice flying by attitude, not aim. Look at the attitude of the airplane: nose high , level or low? Banked or level? If you can maintain a steady attitude, you can eventually fly a steady decent without the wild corrections. Then you can work on putting it where you want.

As they say: IMHO.

_____________________________

Scratch building: 3 times the cost, 5 times as long to build, 10 times the fun.

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 5:10:35 AM   
kdheath



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From: Rochester, MN, USA
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Lots of good material here, gents. Four things stand out in my mind, repeated for emphasis:

1. Use "Stick toward the low wing" when flying toward yourself. Made a world of difference for
me.

2. Learn to use the rudder. It will work when all else is lost. With practice, you can do touch and
gos using only rudder and throttle. Dropping an aileron sharply at low speed increases the
camber of that half of the wing, increasing angle of attack and causing a tip stall. Ka-bang.

3. Try this a couple of times before you laugh: look at the end of the runway from where you
normally stand to fly. There are left hand and right hand corners to the runway,OK? When you
shoot your landing approach, delay turning final until it looks like your plane is going to pass
over the left hand corner of the runway. Then roll level. You'll be centered on the runway
every time.

4. Last and most important-someone mentioned it above-is the airplane Golden Rule: Throttle
controls Altitude. Elevator controls Speed.
If you want an airplane to climb, you
have to add power. If you try to climb by pulling back on the stick, you'll get a brief zoom
climb, but eventually the plane settles down at a new, slower speed in level flight.

You can test this easily. Trim your plane out for level flight at 1/2 or 2/3 throttle. Increase to
full throttle and watch. It will climb. Do it again, but pull the throttle to high idle. The nose will
drop. starting a dive. Return the throttle to its original setting. The plane will resume level
flight. Watch closely-the speed will stay the same in all three attitudes. It will go up or down,
but the speed remains constant. Throttle controls altitude.

Do the same thing again, only with elevator. In level flight, roll in 3-4 clicks of back trim. The
nose will go up, but wait, the plane will slow down and resume level flight at a new, slower
speed.
Now trim it nose down 3-4 clicks. At the same throttle setting, it will level off or dive, but at the
same speed as before. Elevator controls speed.

What does this have to do with landing? On the approach, if you are low or short, add power. If
you are long, reduce power. Once you have the plane in a nice flat glide, don't mess with the
elevator again until you are ready to flare. Control your height and distance with power. The
flare is done with the elevator and is done to bleed off the last drop of speed, so you touch
down right at the stall speed of the plane.

It's hard to expain this decently in a few lines. But it is true of all airplanes from your trainer
to the space shuttle. Same rules apply. Oh, another thought. When I am rusty or flying an
unfamiliar plane, I go up a couple of mistakes high and slow-fly a little, to get a feel for the
controls and the stall speed before trying a landing. Another good practice piece is to climb
fairly high-300-400 feet. Go to idle and land without touching the throttle again. A few of
those will make your approaches much more precise and make the landings better. It's good
practice to go out on a windy day and try to fly backwards, too, but that's another
story...Hope there is some help in all this.

(in reply to 2slow2matter)
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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 5:17:36 AM   
RevGQ



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From: Alta Loma, CA, USA
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I am by no means an expert, but I will share my experience and I hope it may be helpful. Nothing helped my landings like the modern simulators. They can give you a great measure of confidence without exacting the price of your plane. I am not only talking about our model airplane simulators. For example, I have flown Falcon 4.0 simulator for years along with Dave Brown's Flight Simulator and they have been tremendous training for landing one of the tuffiest landing models around, the Gee Bee. So here is what I have learned over the last 18 years of flying.

As was intimated above, the key to great landings is the approach. I have found that the key to great approaches is throttle control. What I mean is simply this. You enter your pattern at the desired height that will allow you to place the model on the correct glide-slope at final leg. The throttle allows you to adjust the rate of decent to the final leg. The throttle also adjust the the glide-slope, and not the elevator which is so often used. If the glide-path is to shallow, increase throttle. If the glide-path is to steep, decrease throttle. It is as if you are flying the plane on the prop. If you calculate that the plane will not make the end of the runway, you simply add enough throttle to power it to the runway, decrease throttle and flair it down.

Maybe simply was not the correct choice of words, as the landing does require discipline and much practice. Again the simulators are wonderful tools for this. I love flying the FA/18 Hornet to the deck of a carrier. They refer to this manuver as trapping. It is an apt description as you come into to the deck at approximately 135 knotts and go to full power just prior to the touch. During the whole process however, you are constantly working the throttle to maintain the proper glide-path.


_____________________________

RevGQ@aol.com
8774 Monte Vista

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RE: Landing Advice - 11/17/2005 5:43:51 AM   
Jim Dines


 

Posts: 1418
Joined: 2/27/2002
From: Keller, TX, USA
Status: online
You have gotten a lot of good advice, here. 2slow gave you a comprehensive reply, and I would identify 2 "keys" to emphasize. Step 6- turn to final: this is the single most important part of the landing pattern. Identify a landmark you can use to orient when/where to turn. The next key is to "let" the plane fly in on final; don't mess with it any more than is needed to keep it on course, and as you near touch down, the flair should look like just "holding the plane off the ground" while it lands itself. The first parts of the landing pattern are to get you to that turn to final at the right speed, altitude and position.

Now, the task for you is to go out there and shoot landings over and over untill they become boring. Or should I say, "perfectly" boring. Enjoy.

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