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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/17/2006 11:14 PM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		You just screwed up your Taurus by putting a lowly G62 prop bolt in it..Might never be the same

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/18/2006 1:31 AM   
Steve



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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/18/2006 2:31 AM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		Steve: After all these years Of running Taurus engines. I finally have to admit that they are not perfect. Although the engine runs as good as any engine on the market today, It too has it's own set problems. All three of the last Taurus engines, that myself and others at my flying field purchased, have failed either with the "PROP" bolt striping out of the threads on the "HUb," or the Spark Plug wire comming of while in flight. This is not a new problem that has just developed. I think, (I know) Bill, was aware of it last year, because he told me, when I talked to him on the phone that he was aware of it, and was looking at making changes after the supply of prop bolt's on hand ran out. I have had others tell me that they've had the same problem. Since I've been so out front for so long praising the "Taurus" line of engines, I feel I must make this problem known to potential buyers so they will be aware of this issue. I think this problem should be addressed immediately. Taurus engines will take care of this problem, if you send the engine back. But.......If Taurus expects to to maintain their fine record for customer satisfaction and reliability, I think they need to address the Prop Bolt, problem now.

< Message edited by Bob Laine -- 3/18/2006 2:33 AM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/18/2006 3:02 AM   
T-one



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Status: offline 		Bob we have, the problem is that in the beginning the prop bolt was too short and did not engaged enough thread. We increased the length but evidently not enough. Currently the new bolts are even longer to accommadate the thicker spinner back plates and the thick prop washers we use. As to the sparkplug wire coming of, that is a C/H design change that has been brought to their attention.They know about it,again we know of only 2 complaints.
Here is the problem, if a prop is tightened directly to the hub it doesn't slip because of the very deep knurl.If a backplate is used the backplate does not grip as well.And therefore one cranks the crap out of the bolt to a point where even grade eight bolts have snapped before stripping out. We did some testing to prove that.
Good job Steve, keep us informed as to how this works for you.
Eventually we will eliminate the problem. So far since adopting the prop hub design 12 years ago we have had 5 complaints that we corrected for those folks without further incidents from them.
Of course we apoligize for any inconvience and have made good the corrections at no cost.
Ralph, get a life. It gets old after awile.

< Message edited by T-one -- 3/18/2006 3:04 AM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/18/2006 11:15 PM   
T-one



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Status: offline 		OK, here are some facts. Hub material Alum.6061-T6, Steel bolt 5/16-24x 1-3/4
recommended thread engagement 2-2.5 times the bolt/screw diameter.in this case 5/8-3/4in.of thead engagement. If a bolt is bottomed out and it will snap or strip out.It will also strip out if the engagement of threads are not enough.The original design had the pilot threaded. This was changed to accommadate longer shoulder bolts. We used average prop thickness at the time,3/4" and backplates of 3/16" prop washer of .250. Now change any one of the factors, props to 1" backplate to a 1/4" and you have reduced the engagement of the bolt by 5/16",torque it down and you will probably strip out the thread. When ever a prop thickness is increased engagement is reduced. We are now using 2" bolts. If anybody want one or longer,let us know. This is one solution.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 1:27 AM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		OK Here are some facts. No need to make a big issue out of this but. Fact......Nothing is stated about any issues with the prop bolt. Fact.... There is no warning about using any particular prop thickness with the engiine. Fact......If the manufacturer is aware of problems with a Hub, or Prop with a particular thickness, Fact......The Mfg should include the different bolts sizes with the engine, or at least ask the customer which prop he intends to use with the engine. Fact...... It's not fair that the customer to have to pay for shipping the engine back for repair of a prop hub that is clearly flawed. . Fact......The manufacturer should never make the customer feel like he has caused the problem by putting them through a 3rd degree with questions about, Did he cross thread the bolt. That could have been could determined by simple examination. Or, What size prop did he use. That question (if it made a difference) should have been asked when the customer bought the engine. Sometimes it's a lot better to just admit that there was a problem that the customer didn't create, than to try and explain it away. That's one thing, among others that I'll give "DA," credit for. They admitted their mistake with the DA 50, and fixed the problem without making the customer feel like they may have caused the problem. And, they are a better company today because of it. Taurus, has lost two customers at my field,bbecause of the treatment one of them received when he sent his engine back to have the prop hub, replaced. I'm not one of them. Taurus is still my favorite engine as of now, Even though I've suffered the same problems as the other Guy's, did at my field. However......I must say I'm a Little disappointed with the questions that even I, received when I stripped out my hub and called you amost a year ago. As I said before, I don't won't to make a big issue out of this but, I must call a Spade, a Spade. During the past few years, I have received much criticism because of my stance and support for Taurus Engines. But I've never said anything that I didn't believe to be a "FACT". And that's what I've tried to do with this post.

< Message edited by Bob Laine -- 3/19/2006 1:30 AM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 2:02 AM   
G McIntosh


 

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Status: offline 		All I got to say is .. Proud owner of 5 Taurus engines.. Never had a problem.. Not even a silly
prop Bolt.. One's screw's are looser than Other's.. lol'

Hey Bob'.. Taurus Stuka is sitting on her own gear now.. Getting there..
Glenn

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 2:59 AM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		Hi Glen. Absolutely gorgeous. Sure hope you make a video when you fly it. I'd love to be there. Thanks for posting the pics.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 3:53 AM   
marzo91



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Status: offline 		Bill, Good thing he's on your side..........

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 7:09 AM   
T-one



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Status: offline 		Bob, I'm not going to bang heads with you. But where does any other engine maker say or do what you state as facts. You of all people with your experience know. Show me what other manufacture does what you state as fact. Common sense dictates.
Of coarse as Ben Franklin supposedly said "the most uncommon sense is common sense"
The hub is not flawed,as to what prop the customer will use it s a coin toss.
As of right now the bolts will be supplied longer.
As for the explanation it ain't rocket science. the less engagement of thread the more likely to strip the threads particularly steel vs aluminum.
I doubt that anyone out there can complain about our service or lack of it. We've done our share of freebies from cylinder head screw ups to prop hubs. But then nobody remembers the good things, but make one mistake and no one will let you forget. We'll live with it.
Thanks for your support in the past and the threads you have started. Certainly they have been informative. We hope you will still feel kindly to Taurus.
Regards

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 7:25 AM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		Dang, and I thought the engines were perfect... OK, you don't want my input, but if you look up the characteristics of aluminum alloys you will see that 2024 is WAY better than 6061 for prop hubs..And 7075 is better than 2024....I quit using 6061 about 12 years ago when a customer stripped out a hub on an Echo twin conversion, now using 2024...Haven't heard of any after that...
FACT...I am not an "engine" manufacturer, just convert what is already out there...Maybe I don't count My hubs are 2024 and the bolts are grade 8, 5/16 on the G26s and 3/8x24 on the others....
Back to lurking in my corner

< Message edited by RCIGN1 -- 3/19/2006 8:06 AM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 11:03 AM   
Don M.



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Status: offline 		Ralph, it simply amazes me that a little obscure Canuck living 400 miles above the Arctic Circle could have such a profound effect on you. You even have my quote included with your profile now. Surely your not going to give up that easy, I'm disappointed.

< Message edited by Don M. -- 3/19/2006 11:14 AM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 3:01 PM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		Always looking for a good profile, there will be revisions when someone comes up with a better one

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 3:10 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		T-1 I assume that what you meant when you stated "no other engine Mfg does what I state as fact. "Common sense dictates"

My common sense tells to me, that the prop bolt supplied with the engine when it's purchased, should be long enough to use with the prop of my choice unless otherwise noted in the paperwork received with the engine.

My common sense tells me I should be able to tightened the prop bolt up tight enough to keep it from slipping, without the bolt pulling the threads out of the engine.

My common sense tells me that one should be able to use the prop of their choice, with the engine of their choice.

Common sense tells me that, since it ain't "rocket" science" and the Mfg was aware of a potential the shorter bolts striping out the hub, it would have been replaced at once, so the customer would not have to incur the expense and inconvenience of return shipping cost and down time to correct a problem that the Manufacturer was aware of when the engine was sold.

Common sense tells me that since the Bott/Hub, problem exist, The Mfg should send the longer bolt to all their customers that have bought engines with the shorter bolt. (Suggest you read post 256)

Common sense tells me that if you make a mistake as a manufacturer, you should admit your mistake, correct the mistake, and move on without making the customer feel like he caused the problem because he tightened up a bolt that was too short in the first place, and stripped the threads.

Common sense tells me that if the spark plug wire falls off of the spark plug on the engine, The company selling the engine is still responsible for the problem. The customer has no contract with the ignition Mfg. The problem is the manufacturer's because he is selling the engine as a package, and has to assume responsibility for the whole package .

Finally........as far as know..........Ben Franklin was into flying "KITES," not RC airplanes, so I put no stock in anything ,anyone dumb enough to fly kites in the rain says anyhow.

< Message edited by Bob Laine -- 3/19/2006 3:19 PM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 3:41 PM   
tkg


 

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Status: offline 		As far as the spark plug "problem" it was simple. The metal cap inside the boot got distorted a bit during the manufacturing process . The "fix" is just to pay attition when you install the boot. Did the boot go down all the way and did you hear a click??.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 3:46 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		I've only been at this 46 years.........Maybe I never learned how to push the plug wire on all of my 27 gas engines, or three autos. And yes........the boot did go all the way down, and I've even crimped the plug contact several times. But it still keeps falling of.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 4:22 PM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		Maybe vibration ? How can that be, we all KNOW that a Taurus single is as smooth as a twin, don't we ?

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 5:27 PM   
Texan



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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 6:05 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		camss69: You said: "To be honest Bob I think we all get the point that you've been around the block. We also get the point that you think the Taurus 52 is the best 50cc engine on the market." I still think Taurus is the best engine on the market right now. However, I don't think it's perfect by any means.

If you've had such a bad expeience with a short bolt from Bill and it was such a hassel to you then why the hell are you such a supporter. My only complaint was and is .....the problem should have been corrected when the mfg became aware of it.

IMHO I'm not sure if I was taurus if I'd want you on my side or not. I don't know where you get you're information from, but you are dead wrong wrong in regards to the "Avatar". Bill called me at home, and we talked about the "Avatar" he encouraged me to use the avatar T-2 with the bull, but I decided to use the one I have now.

"anyone whos ever had a problem speak up" errrr oh yeah I forgot I had a problem!. At the time the thread you refer to was started, I was running my 1st Taurus engine, and I've never experienced a problem of any kind with that engine. That was then, this is a year later, I spoke with the Bill regarding the problem,and after others have had the same problem.

Let's all get in a pissing contest! Metal X is better than Metal Y!!! Well then you engineer and build your own engine.
Never once, have I ever made a comment about "Metal" period.

YOU.. need get your facts straight, before you jump (quoting you) into the (to quote you) P...... contest.


< Message edited by Bob Laine -- 3/19/2006 7:12 PM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 6:34 PM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		Yup, my web page sucks..But if anyone wants any information all it takes is a question...
I think 2024 VS 6061 IS useful information, 2024 IS better for hubs...If he can't take a little constructive criticism, too bad...
My thing with Bill started as poking a little fun, then Bill got all hyper..Check it out way back in the early part of the posts somewhere...
I don't need you for a customer, I have lots, more than Taurus, I have been around longer..started in 1987....
I tell my customers where the parts come from, CHAINSAWS...Saying a cylinder, piston, crank, and carburetor carry a Sachs part number does not make them any different...
If you have read all the posts, I said Taurus was a very good engine...If changing the prop hub material would make it better, why not do it ?
FWIW. my wife keeps a catalog of feedback, too much in there to put here

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 7:01 PM   
T-one



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Status: offline 		Bob, The bolt length was increased a long time ago to the present length.
The hub is not flawed in design regardless. Wood props compress and will continue to compress from usage and requires checking the nut or bolt.
common sense also dictates that when you use a thicker prop you must use a longer bolt to continue the proper thread engagement. DUH
I was going to address all your common sense items. Too lengthly, instead I'll just say this. we have addressed the short bolt a long time ago.
As a consumer all of us also has to except a certain responsibilty for using any product.
Now what do you want for a prop hub that will guarantee that this minute issue can be put to rest. You tell me.
In the meantime we are open to anyone for the answer.
I did say in a earlier post if anyone needed a longer bolt to contact us.
This has become ridiculus.
Strange as it may seem, only a few have experienced the stripping of threads with the short bolt.LONGER ONES ARE SUPPLIED.
Only one fellow managed to snap a bolt rather that strip it out, interesting don't you think.
HOW DOES A MANUFACTURER MAKE A PRODUCT TO ELIMINATE ANY OR ALL POSSIBLE SENARIOS THAT A CONSUMER MIGHT COME UP WITH???
RALPH, ask me if I care what you think. you are entitled to your opinion.And you have a lot of them.
We may look into a different hub design only to eliminate the common sense factor.
Have a great day.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 7:54 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		T-1...I know that your customer service is beyond reproach. Never a question about that. My statement was only directed to the "bolt" issue, and make it clear to others, that I had mentioned it to you. When one of my friends complained to me about the way he was questioned when he sent his engine back to you for repair, (Hub issue) I felt I needed to make the statement that I made considering that someone else had explained how he had addressed the same problem by using a bolt from another engine Manufacture'r. I I'm not retracting what the statement I made about the bolt/hub issue, because what I said I think is valid remarks, and I still do. I've received many comments and PM's, from Taurus owners, (new and old) that praise, and criticize my recommendations of the Taurus engines. That's OK, I believe in the the engine and I'll defend it's reliability against any other brand engine on the market today. Just as I will a Zenoah G62, for an overweight 16-19 lb 30% airplane.
I have no problem at all with the prop Hub the way it is. In fact, I think it's one of, if not the best designed hubs on the market. The "metal" composition is something that I know nothing about. I'm sure if there is a better way you'll decide what's in the engines best interest. My only problem was with the bolt being too short that was being shipped with some of the engines awhile back, and another minor issue I talked with you about. You have corrected the bolt problem now, so that should put an end to that subject once and for all.
However, I think it would be helpful if you to post a "heads up" on the Taurus web site warning of the potential for some prop bolts, being to short to use with r props with thick hubs. I'm aware that All..... wooden props, will compress the first few times you tighten the prop bolt. But the bolt should never be so short that it can render the bolt useless.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 9:12 PM   
tkg


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bob Laine

I've only been at this 46 years.........Maybe I never learned how to push the plug wire on all of my 27 gas engines, or three autos. And yes........the boot did go all the way down, and I've even crimped the plug contact several times. But it still keeps falling of.


Don't beat up T-one about it. We built it, we'll fix it. Just send it to us along with the type of spark you are using and well take care of you.

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 9:14 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		Thanks, but no thanks. I don't mean to be short but, I've already put a new spark plug wire on the ignition. Problem taken care of.

< Message edited by Bob Laine -- 3/19/2006 9:23 PM >

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RE: [b]"TAURUS OWNERS ONLY"[/b] - 3/19/2006 9:24 PM   
Bob Laine



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Status: offline 		It's me Texan, and you almost looke cute enough to do it. lol

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