Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!!  
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Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 3:02:50 AM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
Joined: 11/9/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
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Hi there

I recently started mixing my own fuel (0%nitro),and after testing it a few times,the result is a little strange.

I tried it on a trainer with an Os-max 46fx engine,and the strange part was that the plane was faster and had a better throttle response than my usual 10%nitro cool-power fuel.

after that I was searching around why this is happening,
having a stronger engine with 0% nitro than with 10%.

So I called my methanol supplier and he said that all methanol in our country (Greece) are mixed with 5 % toluol (methyl benzine)at customs when it's imported!!! (apparently we don't make our own)

after searching again I found this:

Extracts from Performance Tuning in Theory & Practice - Two Strokes by Graham Bell

Page 117
" I recommend the use of racing fuels in which the higher octane is obtained by blending additives such as acetone, toluol(methyl benzine), benzol, ethanol or methanol."

...and I think that 's why the engine run better.

BUT,is this additive (toluol) any good for glow engines?????

regards
Paris

< Message edited by tdriver -- Nov 10 2002 10:09PM >
       Post #: 1

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 3:58:09 AM   
DerFly



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From: sydney, AUSTRALIA
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An old favourite mix here in Australia is:

5 litres of "Castrol M" (castor oil) and
20 litres of "Shell Racing Fuel A" (97% Methanol/3% Acetone)

Do a search for "acetone" for lots more info!

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 2

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 8:38:08 AM   
downunder-RCU



Posts: 1125
Joined: 12/27/2001
From: Adelaide, South Australia
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That quote from Graham Bell is where he was talking about raising the octane rating of petrol by adding things like methanol etc. Although there's nothing about toluol in the tech charts (OK, I'm guessing you got the info from my web page) I'd think it's probably added to your methanol much the same way that we have acetone as DerFly mentioned. But without knowing the specifics of toluol I'd very much doubt it could raise the octane rating of methanol but it might do much the same as acetone and alter the flame front rate. The extra power you're seeing with zero nitro could be because the plug you're using is more suited to the new fuel.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 3

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 12:25:18 PM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
Joined: 11/9/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
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As I searched about toluol,I found out that it is an additive used in gas here in Europe instead of lead for some time now.

I may search for more specs,and post them here.

the plug I used was the same with each fuels,os #8.
the engine's manual suggestion for nitro is 5-20% nitro. (maybe it's a "European low/no nitro version"
but my raptor60 (with TT70 pro engine) bought in Hong Kong (high nitro is used) had the same results. os #8 plug too.

yes, the info is from your web page.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 4

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 12:59:24 PM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
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From: Athens, GREECE
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ok,I found some specs for toluol,here they are.
It would be a Big Helper If anybody can answer my first question.


CHEMICAL IDENTITY AND CHEMICAL/PHYSICAL PROPERTIES OF TOLUENE
__________________________________________

Characteristic/Property Data
__________________________________________

CAS No. 108-88-3
Common Synonyms Methyl benzene,Toluol, Phenylmethane
Molecular Formula C7H8
Chemical Structure


Physical State Liquid
Molecular Weight 92.13
Melting Point -95øC
Boiling Point 110.6øC
Water Solubility 470 mg/L @ 16øC;
515 mg/L @ 20øC
Density 0.87 g/mL @ 20øC
Vapor Density (air = 1) 3.14
KOC 259
Log KOW 2.73
Vapor Pressure 22.0 mm Hg @ 20øC
Reactivity Reacts vigorously with
strong oxidizing agents and may generate heat or possibly ignite or explode.
Flash Point 4.40øC closed cup
Henry's Law Constant 6.61 X 10-3 atm m3/mol @ 25øC
Fish Bioconcentration
Factor 20 (in bluegill),
24 (in crayfish)
Odor Threshold 2.90 ppm (in air)
Conversion Factors 1 ppm = 3.77 mg/m3
1 mg/m3 = 0.27 ppm

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 5

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 11/11/2002 4:09:07 PM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
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From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
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No experience with toluene in alcohol fuels, but I have used amyl acetate to good effect in glow fuel (control line speed fuel additive). In gasoline 2oz toluene per gallon turns 93 octane into 105 octane, an old street racing trick.

Fly a twin, then you're in!

WLR

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 6

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 2/24/2003 3:47:01 AM   
jhillyer


 

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Every mouse-click in this textarea results in a script error. Webmaster please fix. It helps to enable your per-error reporting in advanced settings of IE.

So, octane.

I buy and use locally California's crap vaporware 91 octane petrol. I also mix additives for noticeable performance if not overdone.

I remain varying amounts, but a recent blend has helped: base 91 octane, acetone (and perhaps blend of toluene, methanol, etc.), small amount of high-temp cleaning lubricant (sometimes Mystery Oil), and a soft metal suspension such as a lead replacement with lithium (no lead). I though I felt more low torque with mineral like it actually burns off, and late. For some reason I worry about trying castor oil.

For the record, toluene and toluol are marketed as distinct chemicals. They are distinct in >99.99% pure form too, by odor, as I've used both from a biological supply company where labelling mistakes are rare (and I'm not going to perform chemical tests to verify the compound). To me, the toluene odor is much more tolerable. The 'ol form give one the bitter-beer face.

The valves make a nice wet pop sound at low rpm with lubed heat-hungry fuel. Next, would I be insane to try a miniscule of lube-solid suspension oil like Redline's heavy crank/trans/diff synthetic? Disregard the peripheral annoyances of emissions and catalyzed exhaust.

I've noticed ambient air temperature greatly affecting burn of my fuel mixes. I don't have the budget to have an ECU manage the just-in-time mix of these materials automatically. I just premix and dump into the tank. One mix has a cold engine into a torque monster, another mix has it choking with an accelerator punch but a power monster above 3500 rpm, but change the outdoor temperature over 35 degrees (yeah, daily desert flux of CA USA weather) and the behavior may totally confuse. This indicates ignorance within the stock ECU firmware and sensory, and my own. This I'm not testing in discipline; I'm assuming this type of work has been done in the lab by the dynoheads or can be calculated and I'd be duplicating known or projected data. <<< if that _is_ known, please RSVP j h i l l y e r 2 @ h o t m a i l . c o m with it -- especially fine if it factors compression ratio, compression rate (rpm matters), and intake mix temperature

Powerplant under experiment: Audi 2.8l ATQ

http://caltune.com another experiment.

_____________________________

Volkswagen ATQ & Eaton M90 at the ready, FWD stinks.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 7

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 2/24/2003 4:34:50 AM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
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From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
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JHillyer:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jhillyer
So, octane.
I buy and use locally California's crap vaporware 91 octane petrol. I also mix additives for noticeable performance if not overdone.
[/QUOTE]
The CARB is yet another reason for living somewhere else.
[QUOTE]I remain varying amounts, but a recent blend has helped: base 91 octane, acetone (and perhaps blend of toluene, methanol, etc.), small amount of high-temp cleaning lubricant (sometimes Mystery Oil), and a soft metal suspension such as a lead replacement with lithium (no lead). I though I felt more low torque with mineral like it actually burns off, and late. For some reason I worry about trying castor oil. [/QUOTE]
I prefer the toluene to the acetone, they have similar properties but the acetone tends to evaporate from the fuel more rapidly. In other words a toluene mix stays fresh longer. To get any real effect from methanol (or ethanol) the percentage has to be so high that the carb has to be re-jetted, or the injection re-calibrated. This is why "Gasohol" is farcical, at best.
[QUOTE]For the record, toluene and toluol are marketed as distinct chemicals. They are distinct in >99.99% pure form too, by odor, as I've used both from a biological supply company where labelling mistakes are rare (and I'm not going to perform chemical tests to verify the compound). To me, the toluene odor is much more tolerable. The 'ol form give one the bitter-beer face.[/QUOTE]
I always thought the "'ol" was a technical grade of "'ene," but I've always used the "'ene."
[QUOTE]The valves make a nice wet pop sound at low rpm with lubed heat-hungry fuel. Next, would I be insane to try a miniscule of lube-solid suspension oil like Redline's heavy crank/trans/diff synthetic? Disregard the peripheral annoyances of emissions and catalyzed exhaust. [/QUOTE]
To hear the valves "Pop" at low rpm you must be running an open exhaust. Running an open exhaust you must be off-road. If you're off-road and don't want to spend the bucks forthe fancy injection, use carbs. That will take some bucks, but they're easier to set up. Considering an oil mix - I used to use a polyoxide based top oil, from Wakeflied, branded "Castrollo." The "Castrol" brand is now being packaged and sold by a USA company, and I've not seen "Castrollo" since the change. I think "Steen's C" is similar. Use it if you wish, but it will not add any power. The polyoxide oils burn cleanly, leaving no residue.
[QUOTE]I've noticed ambient air temperature greatly affecting burn of my fuel mixes. I don't have the budget to have an ECU manage the just-in-time mix of these materials automatically. I just premix and dump into the tank. One mix has a cold engine into a torque monster, another mix has it choking with an accelerator punch but a power monster above 3500 rpm, but change the outdoor temperature over 35 degrees (yeah, daily desert flux of CA USA weather) and the behavior may totally confuse. This indicates ignorance within the stock ECU firmware and sensory, and my own. [/QUOTE]
Your Audi should have the Bosch Ku Jetronic injection, if it is operating properly there should be no discernable difference in engine run between cold and hot ambient temperatures, using the same fuel. So it's not a matter of ECU "Ignorance," but probably a failed sensor. Have it checked, if you don't have the tools required to do your own.

Hope this helps, at least a bit.

Fly twin engined planes,
. Lot of fun, but still some pains.

Bill.

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 8

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 2/26/2003 3:14:07 AM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
Joined: 11/9/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline
could any of you be so kind to explain what a 5 % toluol (ene) content in methanol (no nitro) "do" to glow-engines performance??
compared to same fuel-mix without toluol (ene) ??

I mix my own fuel (85%-15%) but 5% toluol is already in the methanol,in our country,(no other purity available here)
and i like to know what would be the difference in performance,richer/leaner needle settings,etc.

thanks.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 9

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 2/26/2003 4:09:09 AM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
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Tdriver:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tdriver
could any of you be so kind to explain what a 5 % toluol (ene) content in methanol (no nitro) "do" to glow-engines performance?? compared to same fuel-mix without toluol (ene) ?? ... but 5% toluol is already in the methanol,in our country,(no other purity available here) and i like to know what would be the difference in performance,richer/leaner needle settings,etc.
thanks.
[/QUOTE]

Acetone and toluene act as igniters, making the methanol easier to burn. Their characteristics are much the same, and need the same percentages. As stated earlier, the toluene mix keeps better than an acetone mix, and I would assume the toluol mix would do the same.

Amyl acetate works the same way, but requires a much smaller percentage for its effects to be noticed.

Let's get down to basics:

The ideal internal combustion engine buirning a hydrocarbon fuel will have its exhaust made of nothing but steam/water vapor, and solid carbon. HC + O -> H2O + C. This cannot be done with an air breathing engine, since oxygen is only about 20% of the air. So to get that 20% oxygen we have to pump nitrogen and the other trace gases through the engine also.

What we actually get in an HC + O (in atmosphere) reaction is H2O, CO, CO2, N, and a little bit of NOx. And the nasty part, HNO3, nitric acid. All the more reason for after run oil.

Burning a carbohydrate (alcohol) fuel gives similar reactions and products.

Glow fuel components:
1) Aclohol, best is methyl alcohol, methanol, wood alcohol, methyl hydrate. Various names for the same thing. Ethyl alcohol, ethanol, grain alcohol, again multiple names for the same thing, will work but there are disadvantages to it, not the least of which is that ethanol is the form of alcohol we drink, and it's heavily taxed. Methanol costs a small fraction of ethanol's price.
2) Oil. Castor oil is the best. Period. But there are times when a synthetic oil can be beneficial.
3) Sources for additional oxygen. Nitromethane is the most commonly used.
4) Igniters. Acetone and toluol/toluene most commonly used.

Comments:
1) This is what burns, the more you burn the greater the power. Anything that allows a greater burn quantity will raise the engine's power output.
2) The need for oil can't be argued, only the type and percentage.
3) Oxidizers are added to allow burning more methanol, but do remember that all the percentage of oxidizer added decreases the methanol percentage, so you have to pass more fuel mix through the engine just to maintain the same power. But if you keep the same flow rate the combustion temperature will go through the roof, you'll fry the engine in a lean run.
4) Igniters mainly make the engine easier to start.

Let me post this, long enough for the moment. I'll be back to talk about percentages and lubricant selection.

Without fuel your two wing,
. Just sits there, wont do a thing.

Bill.

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 10

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 3/2/2003 6:08:01 AM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
Joined: 11/9/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline
somebody gave me 2 liters of high purity (medical) methanol.
this is the first time i used methanol without toluene (our methanol has 5%toluene in it) and i tested it right away. (same mix as usual, 15%/85%)

results:

high rpm are the same,but throttle response without toluene was noticeable much better!!

is there anything i can add (except nitro) so that my fuel (with toluene) has similar performance like this "medical" methanol???
(can't buy this methanol anywhere,supply is only for hospital equipment)

i mix sometimes 3%acetone in the fuel mix,that gives a easier small needle setting and a very little better throttle response.
could more acetone do the job without overheating the engine?

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 11

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 3/2/2003 7:10:44 AM   
William Robison



Posts: 20269
Joined: 11/10/2002
From: Mary Esther, Florida, FL, USA
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tdriver:

You can get away with 5% acetone, maybe up to 8%. But amyl acetate also works, about 2%. The ultimate is propylene oxide, still around 1% to 2%, but it's expensive. And more poisonous than the other chemicals you're using - be careful.

With fuel it goes,
. As everyone knows.

Bill.

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 12

Toluol in Fuel = Octane Boost ??!! - 3/3/2003 4:48:34 AM   
tdriver



Posts: 185
Joined: 11/9/2002
From: Athens, GREECE
Status: offline
[QUOTE]Originally posted by William Robison
tdriver:
You can get away with 5% acetone, maybe up to 8%. But amyl acetate also works, about 2%. The ultimate is propylene oxide, still around 1% to 2%, but it's expensive. And more poisonous than the other chemicals you're using - be careful.
[/QUOTE]

thanks,
I'll try it next weekend and post the results.

(in reply to tdriver)
       Post #: 13

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