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Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 11/30/2005 4:00 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Hi Guys. I am in the process of building a Stafford Aircoupe. I have always loved the Aircoupe and decided to build the Stafford kit based on its 63" wingspan. It's an easy size for me to handle and transport. First let me say that I have build around 10 RC planes from Kits and many more ARFs so I think I pretty much know what I am doing. Based on that the plans and instructions for this kit are less than acceptable. Poorly written instructions and less than detailed drawings. No suggestions as to motor installation, fuel tank placement, radio gear installation, push rod set up (except for a pretty poor rudder setup) and many other details are missing that a good set of plans would show. The construction of this plane proves that this is a very old kit design. The lighting holes aren't even cut into the bulkheads. It tough when you have to spend more time trying to figure out what the plans are trying to tell you than building the plane.

OK enough of the negatives. It looks like this will build into a pretty good looking airplane. The few reports that I have on it say it's a great flyer. I have finished the wing. I ditched the bell crank operated ailerons and set it up for a servo in each wing. The biggest complaint I have heard about the wing is forming the wing tips. It's not too bad if you split the lower sheeting right over the lower spar and soak the sheeting with water. You have to be patient but it will form nicely. I am in the processes of building the fuselage now.

If any of you intrepid few that have built these could post pictures of you fuselage details, motor installation, fuel tank (did you make it removable) nose gear install, Radio gear installation, Push rod set up and any good ideas you have for rudder activation I would be forever grateful. I have some pictures that I will post over the next t few days. Maybe we can help each other out.

Thanks

Bassman


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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 11/30/2005 10:36 PM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		Just put stuff where it normally goes.

I'll post some more pics later.

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 11/30/2005 11:06 PM   
PilotFighter



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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 11/30/2005 11:17 PM   
hattend



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ORIGINAL: bassman

Hi Guys. I am in the process of building a Stafford Aircoupe. I have always loved the Aircoupe and decided to build the Stafford kit based on its 63" wingspan. It's an easy size for me to handle and transport. First let me say that I have build around 10 RC planes from Kits and many more ARFs so I think I pretty much know what I am doing. Based on that the plans and instructions for this kit are less than acceptable. Poorly written instructions and less than detailed drawings. No suggestions as to motor installation, fuel tank placement, radio gear installation, push rod set up (except for a pretty poor rudder setup) and many other details are missing that a good set of plans would show. The construction of this plane proves that this is a very old kit design. The lighting holes aren't even cut into the bulkheads. It tough when you have to spend more time trying to figure out what the plans are trying to tell you than building the plane.

OK enough of the negatives. It looks like this will build into a pretty good looking airplane. The few reports that I have on it say it's a great flyer. I have finished the wing. I ditched the bell crank operated ailerons and set it up for a servo in each wing. The biggest complaint I have heard about the wing is forming the wing tips. It's not too bad if you split the lower sheeting right over the lower spar and soak the sheeting with water. You have to be patient but it will form nicely. I am in the processes of building the fuselage now.

If any of you intrepid few that have built these could post pictures of you fuselage details, motor installation, fuel tank (did you make it removable) nose gear install, Radio gear installation, Push rod set up and any good ideas you have for rudder activation I would be forever grateful. I have some pictures that I will post over the next t few days. Maybe we can help each other out.

Thanks

Bassman



I agree with your wingtip "tip"...there is no way a solid piece of balsa will work in forming the tip...I split it at the spar like you did. I also installed wingtip lights.

I made a hatch from the firewall to the leading edge of the wing on the bottom forward of the fuselage so I could access the tank. I just cut out the hatch with a razor saw and then epoxied some maple blocks inside, drilled and tapped them for 6-32 caphead screws. Works great. I started out with 6 screws but found I could get away with 4 (one at each corner)

I ditched the tail bellcrank and embedded two red nyrods inside the horizontal stabilizer and hooked the rudders up permanently. A small piece of brass similar to the way the kit says is used as the control horn on each rudder.

Radio gear installation was standard. mounted in the wing opening. I also went with separate servos in the wing. It's a great flyer! With an ST .51 in the nose it could almost be a pylon racer. It goes a lot faster than the fat fuselage would lead you to believe. But it does slow down nicely for landing.

I'm at work now, I'll try to remember to take photos of my plane when I go home and I'll post them later. I think I have some construction photos too, but I can't guarantee that.

Don

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 11/30/2005 11:53 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		I have magnum 52 four stroke that I plan to use in my Coupe. I was considering the bottom hatch idea. It's good to know that it has been done before. After looking at the rest of the Coupe posts I find I am not alone in my lack of satisfaction with the plans and instructions. I emailed Stafford and was told:

"We are in the process of going through all of our kits and updating the plans, instructions and confirming part fit. It is going to take some time.
Thank you for your input."

So they know.

I have purchased a Robart nose gear assembly for my coupe. I didn't like the way the supplied wire strut fit into the fuse. By the way how is the balance on the plane. Is it naturally nose ot tail heavy?

Lots of questions to come!!!!!!!!

Baseman

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/1/2005 6:05 AM   
funfly8


 

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Status: offline 		Is this a newer kit or an older original one. If it is an older one perhaps the new owners of Stafford have updated the instructions and might be worth getting. Considering building one Will be waiting to hear before taking the next step.

Funfly

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/1/2005 7:07 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		OK, here are some pics. Sorry abut the ElCheapo camera.

1st of all, my kit, one of the newer ones from the 1990's didn't need a hatch. The forward bulk heads had pass through openings. As for the rear bulk heads, I just cut holes for the dowel pushrods.

2nd. When you make the wing fillet, keep in mind that most fillers will shrink. This will cause the fillet to raise up away from the wing and you will have a gap. Its not that big a deal where the fillet is thin. But it broadens out near the trailing edge of the wing and this is where it will become apparrent. So jack up the fuselage about a 1/16 when forming the fillet.

3rd. I have a 40 on mine and it is way over powered. I fly off grass. I take off at half throttle and I generally fly around at 1/4 throttle. A 25 would fly this plane. And yes, these Ercoupes are very fast. I have out run Super Sporsters with it. People just cannot believe this fat pig moves like that. But that isn't very realistic. I find that nice slow and low passes are the most fun.

My Coupe is 6 years old now, so I don't remember all the details of building it. The worst problem that I had with the plane concerned the landing gear. I tried to bend some mains that were shaped more like the real ones. Big mistake. They would flex left and right. It was like driving a shopping cart where all the wheels swivel. And as for the Robart nose strut, they are problematic as well. Make it too soft and the nose compresses on the take off run. The plane won't rotate smoothly. Make the strut to long or stiff and you have trouble with the tail dragging when you hit a bump. I wouldn't do the Robart strut again.

Well, here are some pics

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/1/2005 7:11 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		Oh, and forget about the aluminum finish. Not that easy to see. I saw a pic of one that was white with yellow striping. It screamed 1950's. Way cool.



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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/1/2005 10:12 AM   
hattend



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Status: offline 		Wow, PilotFighter, you did yours pretty close to scale. I did mine as a stand-off (way off) scale. However, the pilot does have an attitude (planes, beers and chicks, what else is there?)

I'll try to get pictures posted tomorrow...I went to a friend's house and didn't take pics tonight.

Don



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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/1/2005 8:27 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Great Info PilotFighter. The pictures of the insdie have really helped me see this project more clearly. Mine does have the open plywood #2 bulkhead. I see that you made just enough of a knotch in the #3 former to allow tank removal. Did you make your rudders functional? If so did you do it per the kit instuctions? Any input on the balance point question. How does the plane balance out, nose heavy, tial heavy, netural?


Here are some pictures of the color schemes I am thinking about.

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/2/2005 7:39 AM   
hattend



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Status: offline 		I just checked my Ercoupe over and I see no lead glued in. So if you plan your radio install you should be able to do the same.

I was going to take some pics of my rudder connections but they are buried in the horizontal stabilizer. To start, I took the elevator leading edge and measured it to determine how much thickness I had to work with on the stabilizer. I then built a center core of 3/16" balsa and cut it to the shape of the kit stabilizer. I glued a 1/16" hunk of ply to the bottom and then installed a pair of flexible pushrods going in a wide radius from the center of the stab to where the vertical fins attach. The rudders are actuated with a little piece of brass at the leading edge of the rudder. pull is outboard, push is inboard. I get about 1/2" travel both ways which is just adequate. After I got all the pushrods glued up inside I glued another 1/16" ply piece on top and the whole rudder actuation is sealed inside. I did have some construction photos as I went but I seem to have deleted them all from my harddrive.

Don

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/2/2005 4:00 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Thats great. I will probably do the same with th rudders. I receved my Robart nose wheel assembly yestrerday but it is to large. The sissor of the strut would be inside the plane. I went ahead with a convential wire nose strut and am moving along. OK what about thrust angles? Did you build in and right or down thrust to the motor mount or firewall? I am planning to input 1.5° right and 0° down.

Bassman

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/2/2005 4:41 PM   
hattend



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Status: offline 		zero-zero on mine, flies fine.

Don

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/2/2005 7:17 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Well that certainly makes it easier. Did you use the plastic cowl that came with the kit? I saw a fiberglass cowl for sale on Ebay a while back. Any idea what company makes it?

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/2/2005 7:26 PM   
hattend



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Status: offline 		I used the kit cowl. It isn't ABS and it's a little thicker. I sanded it with 400 wet or dry and painted it with Cheveron Monokote matching paint...not sure if you can still get that paint..

I am not sure if anybody makes a glass cowl. I contacted Stan's Fiberglass when I first got the kit and he said to send the cowl but I never did. Maybe somebody else sent him a cowl to make the mold. Now that the kits have been re-released there might be glass cowls available somewhere.

Don

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/3/2005 12:41 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		Sorry, my Earthlink bought the farm for a couple of days.

I used the rudder set up as per the plans. Pretty sloppy arrangement, but workable.

I used a fiberglass cowl. This guy has all of the old cowls for the OOP kits. I'll PM you his email.

I think mine balanced on the spar. I needed lead in one wing.





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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/3/2005 1:16 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		pics

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/3/2005 1:23 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		I don't mean to mislead you. Those are pics of Ercoupes. The Stafford kit is actually an Alon, and not an Ercoupe. Turns out that there were four different companies that produced Ercoupes, 5 if you count Mooney. Alons were a tad different. THe rear windows were different and the plane had a sliding canopy instead of the slide up/down windows on the original. The elevator is different also, and I think that Alons had metal wings. But heck, 70 years later, they have all been modified.

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/3/2005 5:14 AM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		more pics. Lots of folks ask why I didn't make mine a warbird. The Ercoupe was a landmark civilian plane, designed by Fred Wieks of the NACA. The WAR Department shut down Ercoupe production after only a dozen or so were made. Cute plane, but we don't need them. They told Erco to concentrate on air cooled engine production for the war effort. The prewar models were leased by the Army and tested, but were determined to be unsuitable. None ever saw combat or were even used outside the US.

About Fred Wieks (sp ) He anylized crash data of private aircraft for the NACA. He found that most crashes were either related to take-off and landing or related to pilots accedentally getting thier aircraft into spins and being unable to recover. He designed the Ercoupe to be the first production airplane with tricycle landing gear. To make the plane difficult to spin, he linked rudder and airlerons and moved the rudders outside of the prop wash and limited the elevator travel. The plane doesn't look that special now, but imagine how innovative it was in 1937. Oh, the first prototype had a conventional tail and 40 horse power. The production model has a stressed skin fuelage, very innovative for an entry level airplane. The design was very advanced. But after the war, everything was very advanced and the population wanted something swifter. The Ercoupe was only good for about 90mph and you , me, gas and bags could wiegh no more than 400lbs. The Ercoupe still sold pretty well.

Well, I know you didn't ask, but thats my reason for keeping it "civil".

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/3/2005 9:17 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Yes this little plane has quite a history. The one military bright spot for the Coupe was as the first test bed for rocket assisted take off. I guess they strapped test rockets under the wings and lit them on take off. It's a testimate to the Coupes strength that it could hold up to the stresses. Although it was never a true combat plane if we are modleing real aricraft there are many real coupes out there now that are dressed up in military paint jobs. So what do you model, only the way the coupes came out of the factory or the present condidtion of the plane you pick to copy?!? In the case of the coupe I think it's pretty wide open. Frankly I am going to model what I like to look at in the sky.

My toy = my choice!!!

Bassman

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/7/2005 4:14 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		I finally came up with a simple way to accuate the rudders that gives me full adjustment for travel and expo. I used a torque rod arrangment similar to the ailerons on a trainer. Check out the pictures. When it's done all that will show are the ends of the torque rods that connect to the horns to the rudders. I could even use seperate servos if I wnated to. It may add a little weight to the tail but I am going with a four stroke in the nose so I proabaly would have had to add a little tail weight anyway.

Bassman

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/7/2005 4:51 PM   
hattend



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Status: offline 		Very nice. Good thinking

Don

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/7/2005 11:43 PM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		Oh sure, cover it any way you like. But if you intend to compete with it, try to copy a particular plane. Find a real one that you like and take a bunch of pictures of it. The real plane prototype that you use doesn't have to be original at all. I think there are generally fewer entries in the civil scale category. Less competition. More booty. The outline of this kit is very very good. There is no need to modify it. It does need a few little details like the gas cap and airspeed venturi. The panel is very simple, not many instruments.



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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/13/2005 4:24 PM   
bassman



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Status: offline 		Well now it's getting difficult. Try to get this wing in the proper orientation with respect to the fuselage centerline is quite a challenge. Trying to get the wing span centered on the CL, the incidence right and the wing 90° to the fuse CL all at the same time is really frustrating. The only relatively flat area of the fuse is the cockpit area so I am using that as reference for the measurements. The only mention of wing orientation in the plans is a 0° incidence reference. Where do you measure the incidence on a wing with a built in twist? I am taking it mid way between the fuse and the start of the aileron. If any one can give me any hint s on how to make this process easier I'm listening.

Bassman

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RE: Stafford Aircoupe (Ercoue) Build Questions - 12/26/2005 5:34 AM   
WacoNut



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Status: offline 		I am going to build 2 of these planes in the near future so I will be watching this thread closely. One will be powered by an old OS .61 4-stroke and the other a new OS .70 4-stroke. I plan on glassing the fuses and covering the flying surfaces with Sig Koverall. Any suggestions here??
Later!!
Anthony

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