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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/15/2005 1:34 AM   
MHester



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aruba_Maverick

Great work Mike !!!

I finally knows how it feels like when I finished building a my own plane with hands and sweat ( albeit ARC Brio and NOT an ARF plane)

Keep up the good work

C Lim
www.ArubaRCClub.com



Looks good, Chee Chong!!!

Drop me an email, I'd like to hear more about that plane.

-Mike



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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/15/2005 4:14 AM   
8178



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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHester

I'm actually building the current ones with ugly bulbous fixed gear

-Mike


I did that on my current build and I’m really, really regretting it now.

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/15/2005 4:58 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Wing cores

I do something a little different than most here. I like to honeycomb the outer 1/3 of my wing panels. It reduces mass at the tips, and makes snapping and spinning manuevers more controllable. That's the theory anyway, it seems to work in practical application.

Otherwise, just sheet as normal. Note that you can't use a vacuum on a honeycombed wing panel, it will either distort or crush.

I start out by cutting a piece of poster board the shape of the wing panel. Cut it just a little bigger chord-wise, and then place it between the shuck and the core. Align the TEs and mark the LE line in this condition. Trim the poster board until it's a perfect match when layed on top of the core.

Now make a second piece just like it. Tape the TEs together length-wise, so they lay on top of each other, "hinged" at the TE.

Lay out a diagonal pattern as shown in the pic, leaving the strips of foam about 3/8" wide. Don't make them too far apart as this will weaken the wing and distort the sheeting. 3-4 inches is about right. Make sure you don't get close to the hinge line or the spar locations. Go ahead and make a cut out for your servo box as well.

When satisfied with your pattern, place it around the wing core and tape it securely.

Either using a long, sharp blade, or better yet a hot knife, cut away the voids. A hot knife works really well for this; you can get them at CST or any foam supplier for less than $20.



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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/15/2005 5:15 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Either making an extra slot on the honeycomb template, or by marking it and using a band saw, make the cut for the false rib. It should run from just behind the wing tube all the way out of the LE.

Place the core on one half of the shuck. Mark the line following the wing spars. These are 1/8" wide, 2 per side.

The best way I know to do this is by using a router attachment on a dremel set at the depth of the spar. Using the edge of a level, run the router down the core cutting a perfectly straight 1/8" slot.

Flip over and repeat on the other side.

Now cut an oversized square of 1/8" lite ply, about 2" wide. Lay it into the false rib slot, and insert the wing tube. Bump it up against the piece of wood and press and turn. This should make a barely visible mark when you remove the piece.

Now using a 7/8" hole saw, cut the hole in the false rib for the wing tube. Slide your wing tube socket through this hole and be sure it passes through without too much friction.

Place the rib back in place, and insert the socket into the wing, through teh hole to locate the false rib. Trace the outline with a sharpie. Remove the piece and trim just larger than the outline.

Using polyurethane glue, apply a thin layer to the false rib on each side. If it fits tightly in it's slot, you're good to go. if it's a little loose, spray a fine mist of water on the glue before installing the piece. This will cause it to foam and fill the cracks.

Put the false rib in position, and insert the tube again to make sure you don't have alignment problems later. if you wish, you can glue the socket in at this point with a thin application of laminating resin. I usually wait until after the cores are sheeted and capped (just to make sure I don't waste a socket if it comes out defective). So far, I'm batting 1000 on that one

After the glue dries, use a long sanding block and CAREFULLY sand the false rib flush with the core. Go slow and take your time here.



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< Message edited by MHester -- 12/15/2005 5:16 AM >

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/15/2005 5:26 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		I have a 1/8" thick file that I use to match the slot on the false rib to the slot I cut in the core.

Cut 4 pieces of 1/8x1/4 spruce strips to a length of 14". These are the main spars.

For the outer spars, I laminate a piece of 1/16" balsa with .007" C/F strip. Add another piece of 1/16" balsa to the carbon for light laminated spar. Use either laminating resin and a lot of weight or CA, either works fine.

When dry cut into 16" long 1/4" strips, you'll need 4 of them.

Using polyurethane glue, install the spars and let dry. If you used the router method they should fit very tightly and neatly. Adjust anything that doesn't fit with a file or sandpaper....or blade if it's bad enough. The only place the bond is critical is where the spruce spars intersect the false rib. Don't stress over the rest.

I usually place these in the shucks, with wax paper between the shucks and cores, and add a little weight (on a flat table of course) just to make sure I dont accidentally induce a little preload on the core.

After dry, carefully sand these flush with the core.

Go over the entire core with a long sanding block and 220-400 grit paper, and use compressed air to blow off the dust. Alternatively you can use a vacuum, but the air works better.

Your cores are now ready for sheeting.



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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 12:23 AM   
bla bla


 

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Status: offline 		Evil honey combing technique!
Shame to cover it over.
I do believe that this is turning into a rather decent thread.

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 3:07 AM   
xcead


 

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Status: offline 		waw MHester, thats a first class work you made!!!

tell me how much weight do you think you won? is the work worth?

really impressive
congratulations

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 3:18 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Honeycombing the outer 1/3 gains about 1 ounce per wing panel, 2 ounces off the total plane. About 56 grams or so. It's not quite as effective on the tail surfaces.

But the real advantage is not so much in the weight savings as moving the CG of the wing panel itself more toward the centerline of the plane. Less mass in the tips, better the snap and spin.

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 3:38 AM   
RC_Pattern_Flyer



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Status: offline 		Mike, I have to ask... or point out rather.. is that your thumb in the pic with the red nail polish?????

on a serious note, why do you not honeycomb the inboard side of the wing? i wunderstand the whole inertia and rotaion of mass thing but even doing the inside of the wings may gain you another ounce perwing.. 4 oz total?


Just curious.. more so of the wing and not the nails VBG

Chuck

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 4:15 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		LMAO!!!

No I had my wife hold the core for me. She's a rare one, she actually makes some of the composites, does my Monokote, tell me my square on corner from top with half rolls looks like s* and I should be ashamed.....

She doesn't have any polish lately, she's been making frikken sweet carbon canopies and the acetone from the clean-up keeps messing it up

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 4:17 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Oh yeah and why don't I do the whole panel? Just hasn't been necessary....Yet.........but very very soon.

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 4:28 AM   
RC_Pattern_Flyer



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Status: offline 		AWESOME... and thank god. phew.

So.. pm me about the very very soon... i am curious...

Chuck

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/16/2005 5:57 AM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Looks good Mike. One of these days you're gonna have to let me fly it.

On the retracts, you can instantly take about 2ozs of unnecessary weight off them by cutting the steel struts about 1/2" down from the coils and epoxying carbon tubes in place. Less work on the servo also.

On the other hand, retracts on an electric are a cinch with this method. Just cut the carbon tubes as long as you need. The axle is also very simple piece of aluminum rod stock, bent and epoxied in place.

Good luck with it Mike

Matt
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHester

I'm actually building the current ones with ugly bulbous fixed gear

Although this thing is sweet with retracts. I'll try and get some in flight pics soon, right off the deck...

-Mike




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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 7:57 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Matt, you're welcome to fly this plane any time you'd like. You helped me a lot with the design way back in the beginning.

Come to the Nats and you can fly mine, and I'm sure Emory will let you fly one of his electric versions too. If we ask him real nice

Electric with retracts.........that could be a wicked combination.........hmmmm...........

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 8:10 AM   
MHester



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quote:

ORIGINAL: RC_Pattern_Flyer

AWESOME... and thank god. phew.

So.. pm me about the very very soon... i am curious...

Chuck


I don't think I'm at liberty to discuss it, out of professional courtesy.

But I'll be glad to fully document the full honeycombing process itself if you'd like? It's not much more work than doing the tips, you just have to be extremely careful and think way, way ahead.

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/16/2005 8:45 AM   
Ryan Smith


 

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Status: online 		Looking great Mike. I take it you're digging the retracts now.

But the airplanes look fantastic, I can't wait to see how this batch turns out. If there's a contest that's close enough in your district, I'd like to come down and see one in person. Take care.

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 4:43 AM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Well, the plan is to go this year. This work business is for the birds...it's interfering with the development effort and the flying.

Another great thing about the electrics is the mass concentration in basically one spot, on the fuse centerline... acts like a fulcrum, minimizing adverse moments and overall servo load. Centering the mass (batteries) vertically will allow for even cleaner rolls and truer snaps (less wobble). Taking as much weight out of the wing as possible, will allow lightning fast stops after a snap. For that matter, tapering the balsa skins from root to tip will also help to further concentrate the mass to the fuse centerline.

SOME ROACH EHHH?? Couldn't help but rib our West Coast pattern brothers.

Keep on doing your thing with balsa. It's still the best all around material available for our thing. Did I ever tell you about the best foam work in the land?

Matt

PS- And on the design front, glad to have been of help. Even gladder that you are seeing the benefits of a solid aerodynamic design. Happy holidays to you and your wife
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHester

Matt, you're welcome to fly this plane any time you'd like. You helped me a lot with the design way back in the beginning.

Come to the Nats and you can fly mine, and I'm sure Emory will let you fly one of his electric versions too. If we ask him real nice

Electric with retracts.........that could be a wicked combination.........hmmmm...........

-Mike




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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 7:34 AM   
dflynt


 

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Status: offline 		> SOME ROACH EHHH?? Couldn't help but rib our West Coast pattern brothers.

Hey, I heard that Matt. You guys are sure getting a lot of mileage out of my snide remarks. Sorry to crash your thread Mike, but the ribbing and all.

I don't really have a problem with wood. I flew my wood Oxalys 50 today, and it is great. Very light, stiff, no mixing required, and it flies superb. The Exclusiv Modelbau wood kits are beautiful. I wish they would make a pattern kit, and I would probably build one even though I swore off building. I have built many wood kits. I started off 1/3 a century ago with Guillows wood and tissue-colored rubber powered kits, and I will always have a soft spot for a built up model. However, for the choices available, I still prefer the French made kevlar/foam/carbon fiber/epoxy kits above all else for 2m pattern. The price is high, and the availability of parts is non-existant, but nobody builds a better and/or lighter pattern plane than Znline or Plf (9.0 pounds (4.07 kg) for the Supreme I just finished, no honeycomb or lightening techniques used).

Mike, you have a flair and passion for design, and that's great! You are making a positive difference in the hobby.

Sincerely,

David

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 8:32 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		LOL @ Dave......

Hey man, it's all good. We've admittedly had a blast over that comment. Imagine if you went to the nats or something, and quite a few people were wearing some crazy shirt that had a dead roach on it with a can of Raid or something silly like that...who else could say "I started all that"? Seriously it all started with that PL thread, and if you read it today, there were some interesting points made.

Heck Mark Hunt even titled his thread "Another wood roach". I didn't even have the 'nads to do that! And yet if you pay close attention, look at the number of people building that plane...it's spectacular. Inspirational even.

I am going to make a prediction: this upcoming year may shake some things up. All of us roach builder/flyers simply subscribe to a different philosophy. It's not better, not worse, just different. And we kind of like being different. And I think the presensce of the roach is about to be felt

Thank you for saying I've made a positive difference, that's really flattering in this hobby, and I truly appreciate it. I've tried extremely hard to do just that, in whatever way I can.

BTW do you get the feeling that one comment has become infamous?

Take care,
-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 8:51 AM   
MHester



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Status: offline 		Oh and I agree with you about the Exclusiv Modelbau kits. I built a 2 meter Funtana Pro last year, and since 1973, it's the #1 best kit I've ever laid my hands on. Period.

I have always wondered if that 3 meter Katana is worth a darn or not.......

-Mike

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 9:08 AM   
dflynt


 

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Status: offline 		>BTW do you get the feeling that one comment has become infamous?

Oh yes. I learned I need to watch what I say.

I am hoping I can make the Nats this year, so the scratch builder's better show up. Shirts or hats would be hilarious, but just competing with scratch builders would be a memorable experience I am sure.

David

(edited -- don't want to overuse the infamous term)

< Message edited by dflynt -- 12/17/2005 5:14 PM >

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/17/2005 10:33 AM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Was that you that wrote that?? I musta missed it. Thought it was someone else. Regardless, a little ribbing every now and then don't hurt nobody.

On the PLProd and ZNLine stuff, I agree only part way. Their molding is nice except the rubber ducky effect takes a bit of getting used to. Their wing quality has been suspect on some offerings. And the flying qualities on some of the models have just been fair. Their latest offerings are much better.

Nevertheless, to me, it's just great to have options. My approach (and Mike's) is just one option.

But I still don't care much for ARFies. Just love them Tree Roaches. Now if I can only get settled enough in the new place to start breaking some Bals.....a. Heh, heh

Matt
quote:

ORIGINAL: dflynt

> SOME ROACH EHHH?? Couldn't help but rib our West Coast pattern brothers.

Hey, I heard that Matt. You guys are sure getting a lot of mileage out of my snide remarks. Sorry to crash your thread Mike, but the ribbing and all.

I don't really have a problem with wood. I flew my wood Oxalys 50 today, and it is great. Very light, stiff, no mixing required, and it flies superb. The Exclusiv Modelbau wood kits are beautiful. I wish they would make a pattern kit, and I would probably build one even though I swore off building. I have built many wood kits. I started off 1/3 a century ago with Guillows wood and tissue-colored rubber powered kits, and I will always have a soft spot for a built up model. However, for the choices available, I still prefer the French made kevlar/foam/carbon fiber/epoxy kits above all else for 2m pattern. The price is high, and the availability of parts is non-existant, but nobody builds a better and/or lighter pattern plane than Znline or Plf (9.0 pounds (4.07 kg) for the Supreme I just finished, no honeycomb or lightening techniques used).

Mike, you have a flair and passion for design, and that's great! You are making a positive difference in the hobby.

Sincerely,

David




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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/18/2005 6:51 AM   
patternflyr



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Status: offline 		Hey Mike,

I definitely owe Matt some stick time. He has let me fly his Alliance and his Temptress, both of which are very nice flying models. But then he had to go and move up north and now we don't get to see him around. Hey Matt, if I make it to Nats this year, you are welcome to try it.

Emory.

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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! - 12/18/2005 8:21 AM   
MTK



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Status: offline 		Thanks Emory, I'll take the offer when we hook up.

Finally got the Webra singing a perfect tune earlier this fall and now we are snowed in. I miss winter in the south. Sigh!

Matt
quote:

ORIGINAL: patternflyr

Hey Mike,

I definitely owe Matt some stick time. He has let me fly his Alliance and his Temptress, both of which are very nice flying models. But then he had to go and move up north and now we don't get to see him around. Hey Matt, if I make it to Nats this year, you are welcome to try it.

Emory.




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RE: Black Magic v2 builder's thread! *Updated* - 12/19/2005 10:54 PM   
gene webber


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Mike,

What are you doing for the aileron servo lead? A simple routed slot or maybe a Gator paper tube?

Are you finishing the fuse with glass and epoxy followed with automotive urethanes?

Considering a wood roach in California.

Thanks,

Gene Webber

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