RE: MOD MOTORS

RE: MOD MOTORS
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All Forums >> RC Cars, Buggies, Trucks, Tanks and more >> RC Electric Off-Road Trucks, Buggies, Truggies and more >> RE: MOD MOTORS

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RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 12:23:52 AM

FoamyVictim

Posts: 1055
Joined: 9/16/2005
From: Ft. Walton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline

The maintenance issue is what's pushing me away from the 19t spec class I ran in all year.(I'm not alone, there were at least 3 other guys that switched to nitro touring) I got 3rd in the series, and probably still would have even with brushless, but I would've spent alot less time and $$ doing it. I feel alot like Skrap, too much of a headache to deal with, and 19T chamelons aren't nearly as bad as some of the low turn motors you guys were using.

Sorry ThatOneGuy, pretty sure steam engines were great back in the day, but I don't see any of them on the road now... Prices will come down with competition, and it's good to see there's some already. And you're right, the prices are unlikely to match brushed, but why would they, sense you never have to buy brushes, cut comms, or "Voodoo" your motors. Drivers racing now aren't likely to race forever, and the next generation of drivers will unlikely limit themselves to outdated technology. Sure, it's great for pros and people with deep pockets and plenty of spare time, but for club level guys like us(the ones supporting the industry) brushed is on it's way out.

Time will tell...

(in reply to sleepy23)

Post #: 26

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 2:53:28 AM

Eddie0

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline

Who is this thatoneguy? I don't see any posts by anyone of that name....

Skrapiron.....are we bit blowing that pricing out of proportion.....who the hell buys a power supply for a lathe? Almost every charger runs them.....and wouldn't you have a power supply to run your chargers anyways?

As for me being the guy who rolls up with a van.....hardly. I own my own track...... www.peelitraceway.com........and when I occasionally go racing, I don't take much stuff with me....besides, that much stuff does not fit in my ferrari....maybe in the navigator.....but I am too lazy.

Like I said, try a new checkpoint, v2, or trinity cobalt with xxx brushes.......offroad guys have been running them for 20+ runs with no loss in performance.....no comm cut or anything....you won't get 20 runs in onroad (too much amp draw), but 5-6 is not hard.....

You can buy a good lathe for $125.....the carbide bits cut just as good as a diamond....they just need to be sharpened more often, with a $20 diamond file.....bits are about $3 or so each.....for a power supply.....any 3-4 cell pack works fine....you can buy a cheap 6 cell for $10....knock two cells of it and it will work great....that assuming you don't have an old junk pack laying around.....

So, a whole lathe setup is less than $150......not sure how you spent $347.....way to inflate the price....

And yer telling me, not one person at your track had a lathe they would let you use? Sounds like a local racing scene full of a bunch of jerks.....

I don't think anyone is grasping at technology......brushed is where its at in competive racing.....on the local and national level......will brushless catch up.....I sure hope so, as I have spent quite a bit money in the development of my motor......hopefully I can release it one day and win with it.....right now, gotta win with the brushed stuff....

I would of guessed someone would of figured out that I am the same EddieO who owns team br00d racing by now......racing doesn't seem to be very big on these forums.....

Technology doesn't bother me......we adapt to the market.....and I don't worry much about how much my company makes, as I don't need it to make anything over a $1 (gotta show a profit of some sorts.....IRS gets mad).....

Brushless is exciting.......batteries will become even more important (don't give me the LiPo arguement......that one is easy to blow out of the water).....selling batteries is a hell of a lot easier than motors.....

Later EddieO

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(in reply to FoamyVictim)

Post #: 27

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 3:08:09 AM

sleepy23

Posts: 4996
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Maryville, TN,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eddie0
and when I occasionally go racing, I don't take much stuff with me....besides, that much stuff does not fit in my ferrari....maybe in the navigator.....but I am too lazy.

no body likes a bragging a$$

most of the ppl here are bashers, there are a few racers and a few tinkerers.
if rc is your life ( which is sad), then sure, you would have plenty of time to keep brushed motors in spec, but you you only have limited time to play, there is nothing better than taking a brushless and and go and go and go.
there are also some of the racers here that have to race with nitros...if you are gonna race a nitro, you arent going to do it with brushed. you are almost trying to come across as being better than the ppl on this board...not a good idea as there are several engineers, etc that reside here and most ppl respect their opinions and comments alot more.

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(in reply to Eddie0)

Post #: 28

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 4:00:41 AM

Eddie0

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline

Well, when a I get labeled as the guy who backs up my van and does this and that.....well, of course I am gonna give back a nice sarcastic remark (I do own a ferrari though).....I don't own a van, never have.....certainly never bring more than a couple of boxes to the track at most like most everyone else does.

As for RC being my life.......hardly. I enjoy the hobby and the business end of it.....but I have a regular day job, own four other businesses, 4 kids, a wife.....play competive softball, basketball, football, and hockey......sorry, time is not something I have a ton of....

I am hardly trying to act better than anyone.....you didn't see me call anyone stupid, poor, dumb, etc did ya? This is nothing more than a simple discussion.....people disagree and have their own opinions....nothing more than that.

And where did Nitro play into the discussion here.....we are talking brushed and brushless motors.......I don't see anywhere someone is talking about running a nitro with a brushed or brushless motor......however, there is a guy who made a dual brushless 1/8th scale buggy with lipo packs.....he ran like 30 minute mains with the gas guys.....broke track records and they finally outlawed his car from being used.....wasn't fair according to the posts he and his fellow racers made.

Go get the engineers......its always fun to learn stuff from them...

Later EddieO

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(in reply to sleepy23)

Post #: 29

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 4:17:23 AM

FoamyVictim

Posts: 1055
Joined: 9/16/2005
From: Ft. Walton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline

"That0neGuy"

His post is on the first page, 2/3 the way down the page.

"Well I was trying to stay away form this thread but I HAVE to steup in and say a few words.

First of all Brushless motors will NEVER take over.Like the other guy said there is no tunability in them.The only way they would come close to being used more then brushed is if their price drops well below there brushed counter parts.Then they would have to make ESCs in the 60$ range.Now the other reason is motor companies rely on brush,springs,arms sales to keep then going.Also what would happend to companies like intengy and hudy when there no coms to be cut?Bye bye guys.

Now with all you guys crying about 8x1 and crap.I will leace in the dirt on the off-road track with my Birdman Tuned Stocker.Your neos, beos, starts arent crap if you cant drive.

Now drop this crap guys cmon.You dont want to be like me and get put on MS.Now I have lots of respect for speedy and scrapy but the fact is brushless is the under breath of RC and is for BASHERS ONLY!"

(in reply to Eddie0)

Post #: 30

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 4:18:16 AM

ZX1

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: d, MOZAMBIQUE
Status: offline

THANKS eddie for your help [and everyone else] this is my first [and maybe last ] mod motor ill see how it goes and yes i do have a lathe [hudy] also a tire truer . never raced mods before so just wanted to know what im getting into

(in reply to Eddie0)

Post #: 31

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 2:17:12 PM

SkrapIron

Posts: 2093
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline

Well Eddie,

What I paid for my setup?:

Comm Lathe: $129.00
20amp DC Power Supply: $119.00
55t Lathe motor: $24.00
Diamond Cutting Bit: $75.00

$347.00....

I then bought 8 motors at $59.00 each, so I had a further $472.00. Then I had 6 replacement armetures at $34.00 each, $204.00, plus 200 assorted brushes $88.00. That's $1111.00 invested into a 'weekend hobby'.

I don't exaggerate when I post things.

On the local level, our 19t Spec mod class dosen't exist any more. After I ran most of the season with a Novak 4300, all but 3 of the other electric drivers switched to brushless. I was actually banned from running the Stock class with my Novak, because there was no 27t strock motor available that could keep up. The Novak is faster, runs longer, accelerates better, and is idiot proof. For a while, I was forced to run in the 'sportsman' mode. But all that did was limit my RPM's. I still out accelerated all the brushed motors.

So, after a closed door meeting, it was agreed by the board of directors that I could no longer run my 'stock' brushless motor in the 'stock' class. So I was dumped into the Spec Modified class. I ran the rest of last season, and the beginning of 2005 as the only brushless motor in Spec modified. Although my motor wasn't the fastest in the class, I continued to qualify A-Main, every weekend. Again, there was the howl of protest, and this time the board of directors told the other drivers to "adapt, or find another class." I won, not because I had the faster motor, I won because I was the better driver, with the most consistent setup.

Within a month of that meeting, 4 of the 9 drivers had switched to brushless. By the end of the season, that number is now 6.

Everybody who has switched has nothing but praise for the brushless motor. From the extended runtime ( and longer practice time ), to the ease of maintenance, to the user friendly qualities. Brushless is a superior technology. It will continue to erode away at the dominance of brushed motors, whether you like it or not. Brushless IS the future of this sport.

You came into our thread with a very condecending attitude. From your posts, I knew that you were more involved in RC, than just an enthusiast. I'm glad you own a track. I'm glad you have a Ferrari. But you, with the deep pockets need to remember that the average person in RC doesn't have the disposible income that you do. Most of the people here are kids, with no intention to ever race competitively. Worse yet, they don't have the resources necessary to maintain a box full of hot mod racing motors. Electric racing is very expensive. That's a fact of life. Brushless is an inexpensive way for a passing enthusiast to be competitive, without dumping a ton of money into the sport. Like it or not, it's here to stay.

.

< Message edited by SkrapIron -- 12/24/2005 2:19:37 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 3:48:52 PM

happywing

Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/9/2005
From: Canton, MI, USA
Status: online

Great debate. At this time, there are good arguments for both brushed and BL. It's coming to an end though. The writing is on the wall. Brushless will take over. The choices for BL products is growing daily. Brushless is way cheaper than brushed already and the prices will come down. Once we have a stock BL class to run in, the great debate will be over. This will happen and the brushed motor will go the way of the MSC.

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(in reply to SkrapIron)

Post #: 33

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 4:27:38 PM

zaphod42

Posts: 366
Joined: 11/23/2004
From: Loveland, CO, USA
Status: offline

I guess I feel the need to defend EddieO a bit here. Before I discovered this site (and before the passing of Big Jim Greenemeyer and the subsequent loss of interest in the RCCars website) I used to read EddieO's posts there regularly. The motors forum there was much more on the pro/competitive level (lots of engineers and motor builders) than the basher level. (Not an indictment of bashers and weekend racers - I am one myself and always will be - we are the reason the sport exists and if we went away so would the sport.) He was always helpful and knowledgeable to both the pro racers and the newbies like me. He seems to have gotten off on the wrong foot here but he really is a pretty good guy if you give him a chance.

That said - Like Skrappy's experience more than 80% of the mod racers at our weekend get-togethers in the LHS parking lot run brushless (almost exclusively the Novak GTB 5.5 / 6.5 system). Most of the racers who haven't changed over want to but can't afford it (though a couple still swear by their brushed motors). Even the guys who own their own lathes and break in setups - a couple of them even own brush serrators and the like - have still changed over for the lower maintenance and longer runtimes (and the ability to use lesser batteries and still be competitive). Money allowing I will be joining the brushless ranks of the mod guys for the upcoming season (in addition to running stock and Tamiya F201). It will be my first foray into mod so I expect I will get my butt kicked for a while while my driving comes up to par but I'm sure it will still be fun.

(in reply to SkrapIron)

Post #: 34

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 8:29:34 PM

losiracer753

Posts: 1214
Joined: 11/7/2004
From: york, ME, USA
Status: offline

i like team check point motors. it will last 40 races without a comm cut.

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Post #: 35

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 11:43:35 PM

Eddie0

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline

So your telling me that the 20 amp power supply is used for nothing, nor ever was except for just lathe? I highly doubt it....sure that doesn't power the chargers too? If it does, its an exaggerated expense, as its primary duty is to power the chargers....

Shopp wiser in the future.....many lathes come with the slave motor already or any old stocker will work fine.....diamond bit.....really not needed.....

Like I said, anyone can get a full quality lathe setup for $150 or less new......used, even cheaper (I hear many brushless guys are selling them cheap.....their loss, your gain)

As for racers......I dunno, if I was a kid.....and you told me I could spend $50 on a motor and be competive, though I would have to rebuild my motor every so often......versus having to pop $150 up front......seem that the $50 would be more easily obtainable to most......at least it was that way when I was a kid.....sure seems how the kids and the guys on limited budgets shop at my track.....

I talked to the Checkpoint guys....on run 40 in Jared Tebo's offroad cars.....his laptimes are just as fast as they were in the first run.....

If I was the guys in your stock class, I would of griped too.....the 4300 is a 19t motor really.....and the RPM limiter is a JOKE to drive to even it out.....motor physics can be evened up by limiting RPM.......doesn't work that way....

In the end, its the not the racers who dictate how long brushed will stay.....its the RTR market.......when they have a cost of about $10 like a cheap brushed does.....then you will see them dominate....racing is just what shows the new technology.....brushless has failed in the last two plus years to do much in modified.....which is the smallest class......its made no headway at all in 19t or stock.....

So does brushless have a future.....most certainly.......is it the superior technology? Hardly.....simply a different technology....

Will it save everyone money? Maybe.....when you shift the variables.....people look for new ones. All I see is the return of the battery wars......you don't find it funny that Novak who stayed out of the battery business for 20+ years......they release a brushless, then suddenly they are going to do batteries......a method to the madness? Of course, Bob Novak is a smart man.

What will be funny as brushless becomes more main stream......more and more tracks will begin to adopt ROAR rules......so long gone will be your hackers, and such until they conform to the IFMAR/ROAR rules.....

All I am saying is get all the facts and information before telling joe blow racer "get a brushless, they are the best ever"......it may not be for the their racing, budget, and skill.....

And mechanical speed controls are still used.....and its been 20+ years since the ESC hit the scene.....

Later EddieO

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Owner
Team br00d Racing

(in reply to losiracer753)

Post #: 36

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/24/2005 11:49:32 PM

michelob78

Posts: 1424
Joined: 8/10/2004
From: Danville, PA, USA
Status: offline

ThatOneGuy is on MS (moderated status) that is why you see he has posted but don't see the post, it needs to be approved first.

Adaptation is the wonderfull part in all of this brushless vs. brushed argument, a good racer does not have preconceived notions but rather will run what it takes to win.... the whole point behind racing. The new esc's that run brushed and brushless allow the racer to switch easily between the two so saying one is faster than another is pointless to me. If I can win brushless I will far less maintenance if it takes a brushed to win no problem there either, technology will drive companies to make things stronger,faster,better. Maintenance is the biggest sticking point, club drivers are gonna go brushless no doubt about that the writing is on the wall, I only hope they continue to battle brushed as we all will benefit from it with faster brushless and brushed with less maintenance. I can't bring myself to guess as to which one will dominate, there are far to many smart people in this hobby with brilliant ideas let alone who knows what roar is gonna do. It's also like trying to compare two things that are not comparable, they are just too different.

These are just my opinions only.........

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Post #: 37

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/25/2005 6:57:01 AM

FoamyVictim

Posts: 1055
Joined: 9/16/2005
From: Ft. Walton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline

Mechanical Speed Controls...I remember those, around the same time as Atari 2600, and the Frog! Most RTRs I've seen come with ESCs, and 15-21T motors these days. Sure, they're cheaper now, but something so convenient as what brushless offers will surely overtake the labor intensive mod motors. It's true, in many cases racing leads the industry, but this is one that goes the other way. The only reason races like these go on is becasue of Sponsors. They sell motors, and if the racers are far outnumbered by club guys buying brushless, wich one do you honestly think will be around in 5-7 years. Of course there are fads, and I absolutly aggree with you on the