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All Forums >> RC Cars, Buggies, Trucks, Tanks and more >> RC Electric Off-Road Trucks, Buggies, Truggies and more >> MOD MOTORS
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MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 5:45:05 PM   
ZX1


 

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: d, MOZAMBIQUE
Status: offline 		HI what mod motor will be eqivilent to a brushless motor
       Post #: 1

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 6:20:44 PM   
raz54


 

Posts: 2798
Joined: 5/23/2005
From: eureka, CA, USA
Status: offline 		there is none. A bl motor of the same size will out perform any brushed motor and run longer doing it.

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RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 8:21:05 PM   
Eddie0


 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Oh my.....

Why were there no brushless motors in the A mains at worlds then? Wanna bet come July none make it again for onroad either?

Depending on the brushless motor you are a refering to......it just depends...

A good 7x1 V2 has smoked pretty much every IFMAR/ROAR brushless system out there...

The brushless stuff is getting better though....

Later EddieO


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       Post #: 3

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 9:14:04 PM   
SkrapIron



Posts: 2093
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Not entirely accurate, Eddie-O....

"Why were there no brushless motors in the A mains at worlds then? Wanna bet come July none make it again for onroad either? "


Since brushless motors have only recently been accepted as ROAR legal, you're going to see them in the A-mains sooner than you think. See rule 8.7.5.0, onward.. Folks have been figting against sanctioning brushless motors for a long time. It gives the average driver a chance to compete with performance that was once reserved for the pros only. According to the rules, sensorless motors are now legal as well...

When you compare the performance between, say a hand wound 7x1 brushed motor, and say a Feiago 6s, Lehner basic 5300, or a Hacker c40, the brushless dominate every time. High end sensorless brushless motors produce up to 4 times the power output, 5 times the torque, and efficiencies approaching 90%.

The days of brushed motor dominance are over.

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       Post #: 4

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 9:34:48 PM   
Eddie0


 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Oh, they have made the A main before.....even won....mainly in the efficiency classes like 1/12th....

Brushless was legal for use at the OFFROAD WORLDS last august.....the highest one finished was in like the D main.....multiple drivers tried them.....and said they were not as driveable.....and went faster with brushed.

However, every brushless motor you listed is not legal.....and probably never will be. IFMAR and ROAR rules require they are wye wound.....all of those you listed are delta wound....

And its really not about the power....its the driveablity of them.....most of the Pros don't like the way they feel.....Craig Dreshcer had one is his car during the Reedy Race........he took it out during practice and went faster with a 5+ year old design Ti motor....and WON the event....

So tell me, why would a pro level driver.....with everything on the line, switch from the supposed faster, better, etc motor....to the slower inferior technology.....and then go faster and win?

And I would hope a motor that uses Rare Earth Magnets.....and cost over $100 is faster than a motor with a street price of $55.....make a 5 or 7 segment arm, larger in diameter with rare earth magnets.....and the power will be right on par with a brushless of similar pricing......its all about dollars.

Like I said, wanna make a bet?

Later EddieO


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       Post #: 5

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 9:50:14 PM   
SkrapIron



Posts: 2093
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		If you want to keep the conversation within the rather Draconian confines of ROAR rules, then you are right. Trinity fought tooth and nail to keep brushless out of sanctioned racing all together. Now you can run legal, but castrated versions of what the brushless motors should be. There are plenty of brushed motors that are faster than ROAR legal brushless.

But outside that context, very few brushed motors can compete with the current generation of sensorless brushed systems.

Regardless, with the current performance of the Neo One, the long held dominance of brushed racing motors is over. The Novaks broke into the sport. The Neo is just the beginning of the new generation, so yeah, I'll take that bet.

< Message edited by SkrapIron -- 12/21/2005 10:06:21 PM >

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RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 10:16:02 PM   
Eddie0


 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Oh my......trinity had nothing to do with the drafting of the rules for brushless......the ROAR reps don't even talk to them much.....I can have Dawn Sanchez, the ROAR promtions director, and excomm member come on here and prove thats a load of crap....

The reason brushless took so long, was there was no standard......IFMAR came up with rules, after working with who knows who (certainly was not trinity, as Ernie P himself has asked why the hacker stuff is not allowed).....and ROAR just copied it over and approved.....

Again, even with motors you guys cannot get (yes there are other winds of the NEO and Novak that are unreleased)......the guys still choose to run the brushed stuff in offroad and sedan, the two most popular classes.....

Like I said, Craig Drescher pulled the NEO out of his car at the Reedy Race.....and went FASTER with the Ti.....and he had the unreleased NEO wind.....please explain....where is the dominance ending?

Your comparing an apple to an orange......if a $150 hacker can't produce more power than a $50 Reedy Ti.....well, then I would feel ripped off....



Later EddieO


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       Post #: 7

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 10:43:00 PM   
SkrapIron



Posts: 2093
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		To be accurate, I only paid $65.00 each for my Feigao 6s, 8s motors. The advantage is, all of my trucks and buggies are faster than any Reedy TI, for the same price, and I don't have to cut comms and change brushes every 5 battery packs, like I did with my old 8x2.

I personally feel hamstrung with the ROAR restrictions on brushless motors. I'm confined to racing my Novaks, and they're really nothing to write home about.

< Message edited by SkrapIron -- 12/21/2005 10:48:48 PM >

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RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/21/2005 11:30:08 PM   
SkrapIron



Posts: 2093
Joined: 5/18/2004
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		The biggest reason I see the Pro Level drivers dragging their feet with brushless motors isn't that they're not fast enough, or they're not drivable. No, I think it has more to do with the motor itself. It's not tuneable. You cannot perform the voodoo tweaks on the brushless motors, that you can on brushed motors.

If anything, brushless motors level the playing field. Everyone has the same powerplant. It comes down to driver skill more than anything.

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       Post #: 9

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 3:30:16 AM   
Eddie0


 

Posts: 51
Joined: 2/15/2005
From: Arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Voodoo tweaks.....I love it.

Have you ever been to national level race?

Craig Drescher flat out TOLD people thats why he took it out.....he slapped in a Ti from his pit box and immediately went faster......

Think about it, if they are supposedly faster.....what voodoo tricks would you be able to do to a modified motor to make it faster than a NEO or Novak (the unreleased winds)......

I think there must be fumes that the brushless motors give off to give you guys these dillusions about brushless motors leveling the playing field.....hilarious.

Remove the variables of tuning and such of the motors......racers will look for it some where else....of course, people will argue chassis setup.....come on, these are some of the best in the world....they know how to setup a car....they know how to drive.....so the next logical things....batteries.....voltage and runtime will be king....gear it to the moon and hope it doesn't thermal shutdown....

And this is where you tell me LiPo batteries will solve that.........just another illusion....

Later EddieO


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       Post #: 10

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 4:01:13 AM   
DRAKE-ULA


 

Posts: 878
Joined: 6/7/2005
From: , TX, USA
Status: offline 		eddie, the fact is, brushless is where this hobby is headed, and for too many reasons to list without getting paid to do so. drivability of these new units, which has been the hands down most prominent issue to date has been put to rest by aggressive r&d by the folks at reedy(no surprise). the simple answer to the question here is, yes, an eight turn flatwire will run close to a neo/sphere, about five times. then if you rebuild it, you will get 3-4 more. then its time for brushes and springs, and probably the last comm cut you will get out of this arm, then its time to drop 40 more bucks for a new one and start all over. how many runs will you get from the neo?xxt

(in reply to Eddie0)
       Post #: 11

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 4:13:21 AM   
ZX1


 

Posts: 133
Joined: 11/2/2005
From: d, MOZAMBIQUE
Status: offline 		ok so what would a fantom vortex 9 double be like in a touring car against a brushless i know bl can run longer BUT can the brushed keep up with the bl or not ?

(in reply to DRAKE-ULA)
       Post #: 12

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 4:18:42 AM   
FoamyVictim



Posts: 1055
Joined: 9/16/2005
From: Ft. Walton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline 		XXT, I was just about to say the same. Championship racing aside, the user friendly qualities of brushless will eventually phase the brushed motors out. No doubt they won't dissappear, and the popularity should hang along with it. But it's true, brushed motors are outdated technology, plain and simple. The ease of brushless makes it the better system. I also agree on the feasibility of "Level Playing Field". If the drivers are limited to specified winds, and let loose to make any adjustments to the programing, it would place a bit more emphasis on driver skill. I just spent a season in electric touring, 19T chamelon motors only, and I'm sick of tuning motors. I actually had alot of help, expensive dynos, and lots of research to figure out the "Voodoo". I'd rather focus on batteries, chassis, and driving. Then I can spend alot less time cutting comms, swapping/cutting/slotting brushes, and adjusting spring tension, hood alignment, ect... I'd love to have a motor work the same way every time without a teardown, just spray the thing out

P.S. Lipos are neat, and they'll eventually get more user friendly.(I like the one in my airplane)

(in reply to DRAKE-ULA)
       Post #: 13

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 4:35:26 AM   
C3Racing



Posts: 1093
Joined: 9/6/2004
From: Oz , , USA
Status: offline 		I want to see the price of brushless systems plumet..

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       Post #: 14

RE: MOD MOTORS - 12/22/2005 4:44:26 AM   
FoamyVictim



Posts: 1055
Joined: 9/16/2005
From: Ft. Walton Beach, FL, USA
Status: offline