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RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 1:04:08 AM   
j79


 

Posts: 37
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: To, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Hi Dave,
can you tell us who are the members of the aero club of canada and how much each pays in annual fees.


(in reply to brayon1)
       Post #: 26

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 2:21:07 AM   
DSLarkin


 

Posts: 136
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Picton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Sharpe says:
quote:


.... Mr Shaw is your example of a go-to guy for "good governance? ok

I suspect Keith will soon weigh in on the Mag savings claim. I don't think so Dave.


If you have an alternative to the competitive bidding Gerry sought let's hear it.

As this all occurred when you were in diapers, you may not realise that Henry Zwolak was the successful bidder. Morison came later. But that's another story.

quote:

My opinion is that if there are 7 groups sharing the responsibility, then it should be split 7 ways equally. Barring that, we should have the voting power equal to the percentage of the fees we pay.


Lets answer j79's query and see if you really want to push this rather quaint idea. I'm not sure that I am at liberty to quote the current figures but the 96 revised figures will give you a pretty good flavour:

MAAC 13,000 $15,000
Parachutists 1887 $9,500
Hang Para gliders 800 $2,500
Sport Aircraft 99 $2,000
Aerobatic 55 $800
Balloonists 200 $1,500
Soaring 1200 $9,500

The Sport Aircraft figure included an adjustment to allow for some past overcharging. The Aerobatic people are now in with Sport Aircraft, not seperate. There has since been a slight change in methodology and memberships so there will be some differences today. And as we are now paying the FAI less, all the assessments are now down at least 10%.

quote:

????? so, is Canada's fee have anything to do with the reported number of members of the groups within ACC?
????? so, is Canada's fee have anything to do with the reported number of members of the groups within ACC?

Of course, we can't expect to get away with fudging our return as some might suggest. It has to be done the same way everywhere. The methodology works for most countries, except for China because much of their aeromodelling is done in schools, and so comparable figures aren't made available.

I think I'm going to leave this thread at this point, and get on with Christmas. Bear in mind that this has all been gone over by three Boards and in far more detail than we can cover here. Nobody is trying to sweep anything under the carpet, the whole ACC thing has been exhaustively covered.

The Aero Club is being run well under the direction of Mary Anne Stevens of the Balloon Association, and the office is being efficiently run by Bruce Carter.

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 27

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 4:50:48 AM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DSLarkin


quote:

My opinion is that if there are 7 groups sharing the responsibility, then it should be split 7 ways equally. Barring that, we should have the voting power equal to the percentage of the fees we pay.


Lets answer j79's query and see if you really want to push this rather quaint idea. I'm not sure that I am at liberty to quote the current figures but the 96 revised figures will give you a pretty good flavour:

MAAC 13,000 $15,000
Parachutists 1887 $9,500
Hang Para gliders 800 $2,500
Sport Aircraft 99 $2,000
Aerobatic 55 $800
Balloonists 200 $1,500
Soaring 1200 $9,500



Why wouldn't we want to push that Idea? by my math, split evenly 7 ways, it's around $5700.00 each. Regardless, If FAI fees are based on total numbers, why wouldn't we seek to honestly represent actual users of the service?


quote:

ORIGINAL: DSLarkin
The argument that MAAC should pay even less is flawed, and the other associations are aware of the flaw so I can safely mention it. Aeromodellers are by far and away the main users of the FAI. We have far more world championships than any other discipline and we hold them more often. We just happen to have a hobby that is rich in diversity.


Assuming nothing changes in fees, ultimately it leads to the question of value. Are we getting value from the FAI?

You state Aeromodellers are the "main users"? .........of what? An archive? Rulebook? When world Scale went off, I don't recall MAAC getting anything from the FAI besides the burden and critisism after the conclusion. MAAC had to pay for everything FAI...........judges travel, lodging, meals. the FAI was one of the main contributors of the huge losses associated to it?

Dave, ........what do we get for our 10's of 1000's of dollars every year for the last 50 years? I'd rather have my cup of coffee and subsequent caffiene high if we aren't getting value.

By the way Dave, I asked this same question to Colin Campbell at my first AGM. It was met with silence.........followed by, "I don't know." Do you have an answer? $30,000.00+ per country X a lot of countries adds up to a very large sum. What do they do with it?

Are we allowed to question the value received for our money?



< Message edited by Sharpy01 -- 12/23/2005 4:54:02 AM >

(in reply to DSLarkin)
       Post #: 28

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 11:36:53 AM   
bbbair


 

Posts: 813
Joined: 1/7/2003
From: Belleville, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

Assuming nothing changes in fees, ultimately it leads to the question of value. Are we getting value from the FAI?

You state Aeromodellers are the "main users"? .........of what? An archive? Rulebook? When world Scale went off, I don't recall MAAC getting anything from the FAI besides the burden and critisism after the conclusion. MAAC had to pay for everything FAI...........judges travel, lodging, meals. the FAI was one of the main contributors of the huge losses associated to it?

Dave, ........what do we get for our 10's of 1000's of dollars every year for the last 50 years? I'd rather have my cup of coffee and subsequent caffiene high if we aren't getting value.

By the way Dave, I asked this same question to Colin Campbell at my first AGM. It was met with silence.........followed by, "I don't know." Do you have an answer? $30,000.00+ per country X a lot of countries adds up to a very large sum. What do they do with it?

Are we allowed to question the value received for our money?


I've been trying to stay out of this particular bun fight, but when Marc words it this way - my eye brows went up.

I have to agree - with the question - What does the FAI do for us? Or are they merely and international Scam to give a few Europeans a cozy lifestyle?

Now; I will agree that MAAC needs a national voice to deal with the Federal government for Frequencies etc.

However; on the International Scale I have yet to see what purpose the FAI serves. They seem to be on the same level as the International Figure Skating Committee - untouchable bureaucrats that look pretty and cause controversy.

IMHO, but I still want to know what they do...

_____________________________

It's Time to Kick the Tires and Light the Fires!

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 29

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 12:09:14 PM   
extra300xs


 

Posts: 30
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not sure that I am at liberty to quote the current figures but the 96 revised figures will give you a pretty good flavour:


We get numbers that are almost 10 years old.

quote:

The fact that we have 13,000 members means that we get a discount on our fees. Let's not rock the boat.


quote:

Balloonists 200 $1,500



MAAC has 200 FAI competitors each year, which is probably on the generous side, MAAC by alrights should be paying $1500.00 .
Why the sweatheart deal for the Aero Club of Canada?

quote:

Of course, we can't expect to get away with fudging our return as some might suggest


Dave, I have not seen one posting asking for anything illegal to be done, there has been some very good questions raised as to why our fee is based on 13000 members instead of the 200 or less maac fai competitors that use the service.

I am rather dissapointed on the personal attacks you continue to make on everyone who does not agree with your stance, it gives us the impression that the deal maac has with the acc is not in the best interests of all of us.

quote:

As this all occurred when you were in diapers, you may not realise that Henry Zwolak was the successful bidder. Morison came later. But that's another story.


quote:

Nobody is trying to sweep anything under the carpet, the whole ACC thing has been exhaustively covered.


It makes me wonder what is under the carpet,.
If Canada largest aviation membership group, COPA pulled out of the ACC and a seperate aerobatics caanada group set up, why is this not possbile for any one else? Maybe Rick Ried was on the right path after all.

(in reply to bbbair)
       Post #: 30

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 2:11:57 PM   
DSLarkin


 

Posts: 136
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Picton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		The more information I provide, the more it is being misinterpreted.

I'm quite willing to answer any genuine questions on this subject, but not on this medium, and not over Christmas. If anyone has a burning question, please write to me (you get my postal address once every two months) and I'll do my best to give you an accurate up-to-date fully researched answer.

Bruce, you don't have to write, you can easily approach me at a club meeting.

I just had a word with Jack Humphreys, who heads our FAI committee, and is fully conversant with the FAI and with the history of the Aero Club.

- for details on the FAI go to fai.org why didn't I think of that before. You'll find the list of FAI employees, all named. There's Max Bishop and an administrative staff of five. And a full explanation of what the FAI does. Compare it with the MAAC office, by all means.

COPA did not split from the Aero Club as Marc says. COPA was around for a long time, being mostly related to commercial flying at first. There was also the Royal Canadian Flying Club Association which was funded by the Feds in recognition of the training aircraft donated to the government in WW II. Then the Feds decided not to continue this funding, RCFCA folded and the Aero Club was formed. Some people went to COPA, some to the Aero Club.

< Message edited by DSLarkin -- 12/23/2005 2:42:04 PM >

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 31

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 2:51:00 PM   
avro101


 

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

The more information I provide, the more it is being misinterpreted.


Dave, the information you provided is 10 years old.

There is rational in telling the Aero Club of Canada that we maybe have 200 FAI competitors at the most, not 13,000.
I cannot see why we cannot discuss issues without you continually attaching blame.

If there is a cost saving for MAAC in the 200 FAI maac member range then you as MAAC's representative to the Aero Club of Canada should be working toward this.

< Message edited by avro101 -- 12/23/2005 2:52:15 PM >

(in reply to DSLarkin)
       Post #: 32

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 3:20:15 PM   
britbrat


 

Posts: 3299
Joined: 6/15/2004
From: Deep River, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		This stuff is endless & endlessly pointless. We are headed down the road to the Can -- what a shame.

Several worthwhile questions have been asked, presumably prompting research that will eventually result in answers. There is, therefore, no point in be-labouring the same points.

New constructive questions are worthy of discussion, as long as they don't pertain to "he-said-she-said & I'm telling Mom".

Character assassination (however subtle & from whatever sources) isn't remotely helpfull & simply impedes usefull discussion.

Merry Christmas kids.


(in reply to avro101)
       Post #: 33

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 3:28:23 PM   
can773



Posts: 1637
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: britbrat

This stuff is endless & endlessly pointless. We are headed down the road to the Can -- what a shame.

Several worthwhile questions have been asked, presumably prompting research that will eventually result in answers. There is, therefore, no point in be-labouring the same points.

New constructive questions are worthy of discussion, as long as they don't pertain to "he-said-she-said & I'm telling Mom".

Character assassination (however subtle & from whatever sources) isn't remotely helpfull & simply impedes usefull discussion.

Merry Christmas kids.




I dont know about the rest of y'all....but I have a plane, heli, a bunch of charged batteries in the van waiting for a lunch date with the field

Y'all should try the same


_____________________________

Chad Northeast

(in reply to britbrat)
       Post #: 34

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 3:35:49 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		A box of wood and some glue in then back of the car ... heading out in a couple hours.... MERRY CHRISTMAS all!



_____________________________

http://scalebuilder.org

(in reply to can773)
       Post #: 35

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 8:28:50 PM   
DSLarkin


 

Posts: 136
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Picton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Avro 101 says
quote:

Dave, the information you provided is 10 years old.

There is rational in telling the Aero Club of Canada that we maybe have 200 FAI competitors at the most, not 13,000.
I cannot see why we cannot discuss issues without you continually attaching blame.

If there is a cost saving for MAAC in the 200 FAI maac member range then you as MAAC's representative to the Aero Club of Canada should be working toward this.


If you take the trouble to read my posts you will find that I said that all the associations have roughly the same ratio of competitors to sport flyers. Sharpe took the figure for the balloonists out of context (but then he would) and assumed all balloonists are FAI competitors. The figure is closer to 10 maybe sometimes as high as 20.

I gave you the old figures because I have them in greater detail. I have the formulas for the others but not their current membership to get the fee figures. What I have given you is pretty close - I can't see anybody staying awake at night over whether there's a change of maybe 5 people in a total. If they do, all I can say is get a life. All you really need is order of magnitude figures. If you want a quick answer, you may have to accept a rough answer. I can work out the accurate current figures but it will take time and research. And it won't be significantly different except that the aerobatic people are now included with the sport aircraft group. When it comes to writing cheques then one does need accurate figures.

Of course the Aero Club already knows the number of modellers who currently compete in FAI. We tell them and also they issue the sporting licences at a cost of $50 per competitor. FAI by the way is not an SIG - it is a an accumulation of a number of people from a whole bunch of SIGs. We compete in R/C pattern, R/C soaring, 2 forms of R/C electric, R/C Pylon racing, R/C Scale, R/C Helicopters, C/L Scale, free flight power, free flight rubber, free flight gliders, free flight indoor rubber, control line aerobatics, control line speed, control line combat, control line team racing............... plus others that we could compete in but Canada doesn't like compass steered soaring. And then there are the events for juniors. And with modellers you need to take the total of sporting licences issued over two years, because the world championships are held on a two year cycle. For modelling it is about 10 championships a year. For full size events it is one every two years. On top of the competitiors, you have to have an FAI sporting licence to set a record.

The point is if we say that we've only got say 200 modellers flying FAI classes and that's all we are going to mention. then the Balloonists will reduce their total the same way, and so will everybody else. So you achieve nothing. By the way I have said this before! There is no cost saving for MAAC by going this route.

The FAI was looking for our total of aerosport people and all our modellers fit this definition. This methodology was applied worldwide. To cut the figure would be to cheat and everybody would know we were trying to cheat. Nobody would go along with it and we would just look like idiots. Remember that many of the other association members were and often still are modellers.

Sharpe wants to divide the fees into seven equal chunks. You would never sell that to any other association any more than we accepted the concept from the people who wanted everybody, including MAAC members, to pay the same mount per head. It just isn't going to fly.

This has all been gone over in great detail in several board meetings. Nobody has posted anything new here. Your own zone directors have been briefed in detail.

Now we could get away from the FAI and have our own aeromodelling world championships. We've just got to get nearly 100 nations to agree and we would have to set up our own infrastructure like the FAI. No cost saving there. Or we could ask the Americans to do it all - but do you think the rest of the world would buy off?

You won't want to believe me but I've fought off many challenges and done my damnedest to get MAAC the best deal possible. And nobody is paying me to do it - I don't even claim all my expenses for the job. And often the MAAC President is with me at ACC AGMs, and so if I wasn't doing my job, I wouldn't get away with it.

Remember all this started with a phony story that MAAC was being asked to pay $40,000 dollars to the Aero Club. I'm still waiting for an apology from the guys who started that, but I'm not holding my breath.

< Message edited by DSLarkin -- 12/23/2005 8:30:15 PM >

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)
       Post #: 36

RE: AERO CLUB of CANADA - 12/23/2005 9:36:24 PM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DSLarkin

The more information I provide, the more it is being misinterpreted.

I'm quite willing to answer any genuine questions on this subject, but not on this medium, and not over Christmas. If anyone has a burning question, please write to me (you get my postal address once every two months) and I'll do my best to give you an accurate up-to-date fully researched answer.

Bruce, you don't have to write, you can easily approach me at a club meeting.

I just had a word with Jack Humphreys, who heads our FAI committee, and is fully conversant with the FAI and with the history of the Aero Club.

- for details on the FAI go to fai.org why didn't I think of that before. You'll find the list of FAI employees, all named. There's Max Bishop and an administrative staff of five. And a full explanation of what the FAI does. Compare it with the MAAC office, by all means.

COPA did not split from the Aero Club as Marc says. COPA was around for a long time, being mostly related to commercial flying at first. There was also the Royal Canadian Flying Club Association which was funded by the Feds in recognition of the training aircraft donated to the government in WW II. Then the Feds decided not to continue this funding, RCFCA folded and the Aero Club was formed. Some people went to COPA, some to the Aero Club.


.....so, the answer is still, "I don't know."

By the way Dave, I never said/typed anything about COPA. Ken and I are not the same person. He's much uglier and evil.

It is interesting that you can type volumes about fees and such, but we need to contact you direct about a seeminly less contentious issue of "What the FAI does for us"?

Merry Christmas

(in reply to DSLarkin)