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Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 5:40:25 AM   
Ragz



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From: Nagpur, INDIA
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I recently saw a PST 1300 engine. Very impressive performance indeed. I have a few questions about the engine though.

1. What is the advantage of NOT having a fuel solenoid valve like other engines?
2. What is the advantage of having a FUSE inline with the TEMS ECU?
3. What is the advantage of having a switch between ECU battery and ECU?

I believe even the PST 600R has a similar setup. I am considering getting either of these engines and would like to understand the advantages of the current setup.

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Anurag
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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 9:09:59 AM   
Kelly W



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Hi Ragz, thanks for asking.

You're correct in that both engines come with the exact same setup, aside from a different model of pump and different software parameters.

1. Simplicity and Cost... I'll admit there is a potential for a hot-ish' start if someone forgets to close the ball valve while fuelling up, but typically this isn't a problem. I've only done it once and the flames were minimal. Pouring any residual out the back end should expel enough to avoid major damage to an internal setup. Performing a false start also helps to clear the motor. (false start = activating the start sequence without giving it butane / propane mix) Following that, you could initiate a proper start with the fuel valve close, burning of any excess that's still in the motor casing. I honestly don't hear many comments about it; none that I can recall in the last year for sure... I do make a habit of manually closing the ball valve as soon as the engine is shut down for that reason though, and I also teach the same habits in the ground schools I've done. As for shut down, the ECU simply cuts power to the pump with a stick-down and trim-down command.

2. Unlike some ECU's, the PST ECU is actually powered by the ECU pack and draws and extremely small amount of current from the RX pack. The 1st advantage of the fuse is when a customer makes up his own pack and accidentally reverses the polarity. Once plugged in and switched on, the fuse will blow and likely save the system from a great deal of damage. I've seen some ECU's saved by the fuse, and yet some are cooked just before the fuse blows. Its not a be-all end-all fix, but it does help. The other main reason is in the event of a short, the ECU will also likely be saved. Such shorts could be modified cables, a seized starter motor, seized pump, or a glow plug harness that's damaged and shorted directly to the plug base. Simply put, there's always a potential for something unforeseen to go wrong, which is why you have so many fuses in your car's fuse box. Putting a fuse in the ECU power cable is just common sense basically, and the additional cost incurred in the fuse and fuse holder is cheap insurance.

3. As stated in #2, the ECU is powered by the ECU pack, and not the RX pack. For this reason, we include a switch to allow the ECU to be shut down without disconnecting the ECU battery. If someone were to get creative (although this would void the warrantee) they could theoretically solder a +ve charge receptacle onto the other set of poles in the switch and splice a charge lead into the system... That's not an officially supported modification from PST, just something I've been meaning to try one of these days. I run Duralites, which already have their own charge post, but next time I run a system on a Ni-Cad or Ni-Mh pack, I'll try it. I don't know that there's much of an advantage to not drawing a current off the RX system to power the ECU, but with the current requirements of several digital servos every bit helps.

I hope that answers all your questions.
Kelly


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragz

I recently saw a PST 1300 engine. Very impressive performance indeed. I have a few questions about the engine though.

1. What is the advantage of NOT having a fuel solenoid valve like other engines?
2. What is the advantage of having a FUSE inline with the TEMS ECU?
3. What is the advantage of having a switch between ECU battery and ECU?

I believe even the PST 600R has a similar setup. I am considering getting either of these engines and would like to understand the advantages of the current setup.



< Message edited by Kelly W -- 12/23/2005 9:23:35 AM >


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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 9:33:51 AM   
B777


 

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Hi,

I see that Kelly beats me for the answers. Lets just consider the following info as an additional input to Kelly's answers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ragz

I recently saw a PST 1300 engine. Very impressive performance indeed. Thank you. I have a few questions about the engine though. Answers in Blue.

1. What is the advantage of NOT having a fuel solenoid valve like other engines?
Fuel solenoid valve is closed when there is no power thus blocking fuel to the engine (Failed closed). The advantage here is that you can avoid a flooded engine if you forget to close the manual valve during refueling. Disadvantages: First scenario, while operating and the fuel solenoid valve fails, the fuel valve will close thus causing a shutdown even though the ecu and the turbine are in good health. Second scenario, shuting down and the valve stuck in open position causing a turbine run-away condition. TEMS ecu, on the otherhand, will cut power supply to the fuel pump for shutdown command. So, the advantage here is that you will get a shutdown only from a Tx command or lost of R/C signal or over parameters conditions or shutting off the manual valve. If you just don't forget to turn the manual valve off after shutdown or before fueling, then the advantages are as stated. BTW, for safety, you will need manual shutoff valve anyway whether you are using fuel solenoid valve or not.

2. What is the advantage of having a FUSE inline with the TEMS ECU?
To protect the TEMS in case you plug in an inappropriate power supply

3. What is the advantage of having a switch between ECU battery and ECU?
So you can switch the TEMS on/off without having to pull the power plug. Similar to turning on/off your radio system.

I believe even the PST 600R has a similar setup. I am considering getting either of these engines and would like to understand the advantages of the current setup. Please do not hesitate to contact us for any information. Thank you.


Best regards,
Kraivuth S.



< Message edited by B777 -- 12/23/2005 9:55:08 AM >


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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 12:52:35 PM   
Ragz



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From: Nagpur, INDIA
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Thanks for the detailed reply. I can understand the fuel system. But arent we adding more links in the chain that can go bad? What if the fuse blows in air? What if the switch shorts in air? Why dont other manufacturers use this method of powering and running their engines? These questions are purely out of curiosity no other intention.

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 4:01:43 PM   
B777


 

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If we are going to look at all possibilities of things that can go wrong then the list is endless.

Let's be logical. If the switch is shorted or the fuse gets blown during flight then there are reasons for such malfunction that would have commanded any ECUs to shut the turbine down anyway (if the ecu survived). The switch can be omitted and bypassed but the fuse is there to protect the TEMS. You may not see fuses or switches on some turbines but there must be some sort of built-in protection and power isolation circuitry that may not be as obvious as ours. Only when it comes to repair that you would see the differences.

Anyway, in the past 3 years, we have not seen a shorted switch or blown fuse during normal operation yet.

Hope that we can be at your service very soon.

Kraivuth S. B777




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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 5:24:50 PM   
HarryC


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelly W
I honestly don't hear many comments about it; none that I can recall in the last year for sure...

I posted the question just 1 month ago which you answered! see my post of 21 Nov.
However I see B777's point about it being a problem if it failed in flight and closed off the fuel, I don't think my Sabre will make a good glider.

H


< Message edited by HarryC -- 12/23/2005 5:26:13 PM >

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 12/23/2005 5:44:58 PM   
Kelly W



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From: Delta, BC, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HarryC

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kelly W
I honestly don't hear many comments about it; none that I can recall in the last year for sure...

I posted the question just 1 month ago which you answered! see my post of 21 Nov.
However I see B777's point about it being a problem if it failed in flight and closed off the fuel, I don't think my Sabre will make a good glider.

H



Harry!
You got me man... This is exactly why I shouldn't reply to postings at 2AM while I've got a nasty head cold and can't sleep...

I was just referring to cases where I was chatting with guys at the strip, one the phone, etc. My bad... Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that its not really a big problem according to what I hear from customers. That being said... To offer the option, I hope GB includes this function if they decide to revise the design.

Kelly

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/23/2007 4:16:55 PM   
speedbrake


 

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Kelly,
I have a couple of questions about my PSTs. First, I just unpacked a new PST600R and noticed the Ground Display Unit has a rattle. Something inside the box is loose. Is it alright for me to open the box without adversely affecting the warrantly?

Second, my other PST has been difficult to start. The propane is not flowing into the tank....almost as if a tube is bent or plugged. It has been necessary to inject propane during the ramp up to get past 17,000 RPM during start. I've changed the propane bottle so can rule that out. I haven't changed the tubing yet but that will be my next move. After the initial attempt to inject propane, the second attempt seems to work. The turbine runs normally other than the propane problem.

Chow,
Keith Lindsay

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/23/2007 7:06:46 PM   
Kelly W



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Hi Keith,

In this case I think I'll ask them to make an exception if you feel comfortable doing it. (Do not take this as a blanket statement that users can do this an not adversely affect warranty)

The box is relatively easy to open. There are 4 Phillips screws hidden under the rubber feet. Scrape the feet off with a slot screw driver. Don't get the adhesive dirty as you'll be re using them. Undo the screws, then take an exacto knife and gently pick one of the back plate sides away from the case. It may be tight... open it up slightly (not much, to avoid pulling the cables) and see if you can shake the offending item out. Please let me know what you find... I assume the unit still functions correctly?


On the start gas issue... You may have a kink in the line, or some other restriction, or not. Hard for me to help here without the jet in front of me... It could also be an EGT probe depth issue though. If you have adequate gas flow, but your probe's out of position, the EGT may take its time and you may run low on vapour pressure in the on-board tank. Running temps will also look low if this is the problem. You'll probably find this isn't a problem if you eliminate the on-board canister and run from an separate external source. Reason being, the external tank has a lot more vapour build up and will take much longer before you get a drop in pressure.

Kelly


< Message edited by Kelly W -- 7/23/2007 7:08:57 PM >


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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/24/2007 12:11:12 AM   
speedbrake


 

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Kelly,
Inside the ground display unit are two circuit boards. Both boards have two screws holding them in place. The larger board has fours holes, one in each corner. However, the two blank holes, no screws, don't seem to be tapped. The rattle I heard was an extra board mounting screw. Since the GDU hasn't been used yet it is probably OK....no short likely. I'll let you know if there is a problem.

I'll keep you posted on the propane filling problem.

Chow,
Keith

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/25/2007 9:35:56 PM   
speedbrake


 

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Kelly,
I found fluid in the on-board propane tank. Not sure what it means....the pressure should have been exhausted during the last start. I don't turn the propane supply tank upside down when filling. Could it be a residual from previous start sequences? I have eightly flights thus far. I remember the trouble started when the glow plug started going bad. I went through four or five start sequences before realizing the plug was faulty. Do you think there is any correlation between the two? Other wise the turbine has been running normally. It has always been slow to ramp up so this problem wasn't readily apparent at first.

Keith

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RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/29/2007 3:06:23 PM   
speedbrake


 

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From: Fort Valley, GA, USA
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Kelly,
I removed the on-board propane canister and drained what fluid was inside. After reassembly, the system worked perfectly. The system takes a full charge each start and the ramp sequence is back to normal. Not sure what the issue was but can't beat success.

I have eighty flights on my plane and turbine. I guess it is time to find out what is required for returning the turbine for overhaul. Please let me know the address and what is needed to be returned. Any idea of cost? I've never read about the cost of rebuilt...strange you've thought somebody would have mentioned it before.

Thanks,
Keith

(in reply to Kelly W)
       Post #: 12

RE: Few questions about PST engines - 7/30/2007 6:31:39 AM   
Kelly W



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From: Delta, BC, CANADA
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Hey Keith,
I gotta keep this short as I'm out of town at the High River Jet Rally. Back in contact ~Aug 7. (BTW everyone else, if you call my place for customer support, I'm not there and the guy staying there won't know anything about turbines!) Please email / PM me in the mean time...

Fluid left over in the canister is normal. It likley won't all be consumed in the previous start.

The burn time on propane is driven by many, many factors. If it takes time getting up to 110C, you'll have a longer start. Once on kero, its a function of the start ramp setting.

I'll put you in contact with the service dept when I return. Either that or you can just contact 'B777' on RCU (Kraivuth in Thailand).

< Message edited by Kelly W -- 7/30/2007 6:32:34 AM >


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