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RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 7:09:50 PM   
Morison


 

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OK, I was not wanting to pend time wading into this debate - but hey, it's a personality flaw I have.

What some seem to forget is that the FAI has laid the groundwork for most of the safety and competition rules we use on a national basis. The fact that there isn't an FAI RC Combat category, adn the fact that RC combat (scale in particular) is having huge arguments over rules is not a coincidence.
Without a doubt, the FAI is less relevant in north america, where we typically have two rule sets to adjust to, that are pretty similar for the most part. In Europe, however, when you can and will travel to a handful of countries to compete in a season, a unified rule-set is the best course of action ... hence the 'everyday value' and importance of the FAI.
There is also little doubt that in Canada we are entrenched in our own rule-sets, and generally are in sync with the AMA. Even though the rule-sets we follow owe their roots and general direction to the FAI rules ... many don't see a reason for belonging.
Membership benefits to the association are well beyond the ability to enter teams in world championships, but are definitely not tangible. Yes, affiliation with the FAI DOES give MAAC some legitemacy when dealing with the government (and yes, Transport Canada does consult with MAAC on issues pertaining to model aviation.)
Our fees to the ACC are not at all a simple matter of telling them what we'll pay (although we managed to do that a while ago) ... the ACC budget is $40,000 per year, with most of that (I believe) going to the FAI in membership fees. even if we were to successfully argue that our membership fees should reflect only the FAI pilots ... the formula that the FAI uses to set a country's fees wouldn't change, and that FAI budget would still be $40,000 - and we'd likely still end up paying the lion's share because we typically field the highest number of competitors each year.

(this discussion raises an interesting question, however, of what would happen to our country's FAI competitors if the ACC failed?)

The other issue at hand is the principle of changing the nature of an organization without regard to the origins of the club.

Let's say that a glider pilot joins a pylon racing club, because the field is great for gliders during the week when there aren't any pylon guys at the field. Word gets out, and more glider guys join the club because the work shift work and can make it out to the field mid week when it is available. Over time, some electric flyers hear about the club, and work out a field sharing agreement and grab some of the week days for electric flying.
eventually, the majority of the membership is not interested in pylon racing, and at an AGM manages to pass a motion banning all competition on the club field in order to open up the weekend days for the gliders and electrics.
Does this seem right to you?
On one hand, yes, majority rules is a good principle to work with, however ... in this case you have members joining a club KNOWING that the club has a set our purpose of promoting and participating in pylon racing. They join the club because they decide that they get what they need from the club, even if they are not after the same 'end.' Fundamentally changing the purpose of the club, in this type of situation, is morally wrong. This is no different that the non-competitor pushing MAAC leave the ACC/FAI - that is at the core of what MAAC is all about.


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(in reply to britbrat)
       Post #: 51

RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 7:27:59 PM   
Applehoney


 

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>Acenomore: Is it worth $16,000 - as a long time maac member I have to say no to the value. The amound is high in realtion to the benefits. We should be looking a lot smaller fee

You merely confirm my point. No matter how clearly and patiently the relative aspects of funding MAAC, ACC and FAI are explained by those knowledgeable about same, you and a very few others choose to persistently and consistently ignore them in order to continue to tread your own narrow, lonely path.

(in reply to britbrat)
       Post #: 52

RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 9:31:19 PM   
Sharpy01



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Applehoney

The purpose of this thread is patently obvious.

It permits a handful of anti-FAI (and, sometimes, anti-MAAC) people to fulminate and vent to their heart's content, totally regardless of clear and reasoned clarifications and explanations presented in response ... apparently oblivious to the fact that the balance of MAAC's 13,000 members are contentedly enjoying their sport and hobby, supporting their organisation without whining about how their modest subscription monies are dispersed, and quietly proud of Canadian achievements of their fellows on the World scene - no matter what the diverse interests of those competitors might be.

It's easy to criticise from the sidelines without making any positive effort to present your views at AZM's and/or your ZD; least of all to step forward and take a real part in MAAC affairs. You're not alone, this happens in any gathering, club or organisation - no matter of what size or purpose - while others do the work for the good of the whole.

Carry on , fellows ... it's good for your blood pressures, which might be lowered even more if you just went flying ....



This "discussion" boards are in fact, created for discussion. Hence the handle, "Discussion Board" or "Forum". I'm not anti-anything, Apple.

All the abstract, historical and "moral" (?...come on, Keith, "moral"?) reasons aside, I asked a pretty simple question;

"What value do we (MAAC, ACC, oh Canana) get from the FAI for the money we pay"

Reported by Larkin, Canada's fee is over 30K a year multiplied by over 100 countries (with many paying more) is a lot of money essentially for "record keeping" for modelers, which we are apparently the highest percentage of membership world wide?

The resounding answer received thus far is, "I don't know". Maybe we should know. yes? no?

For you to wrap yourself in some Canadian pride flag and slam all who ask any questions about this lack of knowledge is unecessary?

I don't understand the need to put an end to any honest discussion on the subject and brand all who ask as "anti"?

Not much different from branding anyone who doesn't agree with a wasteful mult-billion dollar gun registry as a "gun nut".

It's wrong.

(in reply to Applehoney)
       Post #: 53

RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 9:56:01 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... essentially for "record keeping" for modelers...


There we go with the dis-information and spin mongering comparing the FAI to gun registries etc. it gets a little long in tooth don't you think?

Do you think the paltry sums we're talking about here have any weight in the real picture? Does it even cover the office expenses, let alone wages of the administration? Get real!

Just what do you think it costs to maintain a world level organisation? Do you think you could run it out of your garage? Would you be willing to do this for less than $20K including all costs (e.g. overseas communications etc)? What do you think a reasonable budget would be to operate an organization of this type should be? What experience/knowledge do you base this budget on? I've had a little experience with other amateur organisations that have similar international representation. I can tell you, 16k is a deal compared to these others who typically must pay the equivalent of a full time office admin including office expenses..... a number around 60K is more common.

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RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 10:29:47 PM   
sam369


 

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quote:

What some seem to forget is that the FAI has laid the groundwork for most of the safety and competition rules we use on a national basis.


What a pile of rubbish - FAI is competition not safety.

Safety rules come from experience or from an accident (s).

It's like saying the the "rule" to de ice aircraft with snow or ice on the wings came from the FAI - what a bunch of crap.

We all know that the regulation to now "de-ice" aircraft came after a series of aircraft accidents such as the one in Dryden Ontario with the Foker F27 or F28.

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)
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RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 10:43:19 PM   
Sharpy01



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... essentially for "record keeping" for modelers...


There we go with the dis-information and spin mongering comparing the FAI to gun registries etc. it gets a little long in tooth don't you think?

Do you think the paltry sums we're talking about here have any weight in the real picture? Does it even cover the office expenses, let alone wages of the administration? Get real!


.....

Jim, the comparison is meant to be unrealistic to make the point that it's incorrect to place an "anti" label on anyone who has an opposing opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_McIntyre

Just what do you think it costs to maintain a world level organisation? Do you think you could run it out of your garage? Would you be willing to do this for less than $20K including all costs (e.g. overseas communications etc)? What do you think a reasonable budget would be to operate an organization of this type should be? What experience/knowledge do you base this budget on? I've had a little experience with other amateur organisations that have similar international representation. I can tell you, 16k is a deal compared to these others who typically must pay the equivalent of a full time office admin including office expenses..... a number around 60K is more common.


.................. ah..........Kinda what I'm trying to find out Jim. That's the point. Nobody seems to have a real answer.

30K (Kanada) X 100 (knowing that many have a higher fee) = Modest est. $3,000,000.00 per year.

Best anybody could come up with regarding what MODELERS (of which it has also been stated make up the largest membership numbers of the FAI) get out of the FIA is "record keeping" and "rules". We know that if you host any of the FAI Model World events, it's the host country that pays for EVERYTHING (that's from experience on the board) and we get Zip from the parent organization to do so?

..........is it good value? Are we paying big bucks to support "full scale" flyers?.......... lotsa "meetings" ..........travel to exotic places for a select few? ........golf balls?......gum?......what?

Are these not fair questions?

Is it fair to slag those who ask?


< Message edited by Sharpy01 -- 1/2/2006 11:19:16 PM >

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RE: FAI - 1/2/2006 11:47:03 PM   
Applehoney


 

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>..........is it good value? Are we paying big bucks to support "full scale" flyers?.......... lotsa "meetings" ..........travel to exotic places for a select few? ........golf balls?......gum?......what?

Whatever .... arguing the toss on this board and bearing in mind the noted tendency to ignore or twist any responsible answers that have been supplied .. is achieving nothing whatsoever. Nada! Zilch! MAAC isn't going to take any formal notice and one cannot expect them to.

The Discussion Boards are intended for discussion ... but discuss until you're blue in the face .. it's not going to make one iota of difference to your aims as the site itself has nothing whatsoever to do with MAAC as an organisation. If you have valid questions - and, yes, in your own hearts and minds .. you sincerely have .. the only way you'll resolve them is to raise them through the accepted 'chain of command'. Have questions raised through your AZM's to go to Board level .. convince your ZD to raise such points on your behalf; that way you'll make progress if there is any to be made. If there isn't, at least you'll have 'official' answers, whether you choose to believe them or not.....

(in reply to Sharpy01)
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RE: FAI - 1/3/2006 12:30:53 AM   
Morison


 

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From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sam369

quote:

What some seem to forget is that the FAI has laid the groundwork for most of the safety and competition rules we use on a national basis.

What a pile of rubbish - FAI is competition not safety. Safety rules come from experience or from an accident (s).

It's not rubbish simply because you say it is rubbish ...
The FACT is that competition rules as set out by the FAI have very strict guidelines on field set-up and and safety issues. To even suggest that FAI is 'not safety' clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding and knowledge of what FAI does adn what the rules cover.
Do we make safety rules as a reaction to accidents and near accidents - yes - and often those rules are based in a knee-jerk reaction and are poorly formulated and implemented.
Without a doubt, safety concerns are not going to be regionally exclusive ... the same issues are likely being dealt with globally. Doesn't it make sense to at least look at international standards before re-inventing the rules?

I also agree with Mark - we should have access to the FAI budgets and financials if we want to see them. (I personally don't) I would expect to see a LOT of money spent on meetings where very few get together in really nice places and take their time talking about a variety of things - generally related to aviation.


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RE: FAI - 1/3/2006 12:55:36 AM   
Jim_McIntyre



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From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
Jim, the comparison is meant to be unrealistic to make the point that it's incorrect to place an "anti" label on anyone who has an opposing opinion.


Call me slow but, does this make any sense to anyone (other than Marc)?


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RE: FAI - 1/3/2006 2:28:50 AM   
Sharpy01



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From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
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.ok Jim, You're slow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Applehoney

The Discussion Boards are intended for discussion ... but discuss until you're blue in the face .. it's not going to make one iota of difference to your aims as the site itself has nothing whatsoever to do with MAAC as an organisation. If you have valid questions - and, yes, in your own hearts and minds .. you sincerely have .. the only way you'll resolve them is to raise them through the accepted 'chain of command'. Have questions raised through your AZM's to go to Board level .. convince your ZD to raise such points on your behalf; that way you'll make progress if there is any to be made. If there isn't, at least you'll have 'official' answers, whether you choose to believe them or not.....


........yeah, maybe I should run for the board. Then, I would have easy access to all the answers and everything would make perfect sense. I would see the light! Good Idea.

lol.

(in reply to Applehoney)
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RE: FAI - 1/3/2006 12:32:12 PM   
avro101


 

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quote:

The other issue at hand is the principle of changing the nature of an organization without regard to the origins of the club.


My grandfather was a farmer, my father a farmer, my father sold the farm. I am not a farmer. My family still remembers the farm with great fondess. We got on just fine then and today.

Yes MAAC can change and be more successful in the years ahead, these fears about losing our FAI roots are from a small minority that fear losing their FAI heiachry in maac, but in turn have not come up with a plan for the future.

Maybe the profits from the FAI world glider champs should have been used to pay ACC fees instead of providing a perk for themselves.
Compare MAAC today from 20 years ago. Are these FAI ACC maac members thinking about maac or themselves first?

No one is thinking about leaving the ACC, the question is whether paying $16,000 to the Aero Club of Canada for a few guys to fly FAI good value and how does that compare what we pay in other association fees?

< Message edited by avro101 -- 1/3/2006 12:39:27 PM >

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RE: FAI - 1/3/2006 12:46:50 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



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From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: avro101
My grandfather was a farmer, my father a farmer, my father sold the farm. I am not a farmer. My family still remembers the farm with great fondess. We got on just fine then and today.


We have much in common then ... generations of my family were farmers, my Grandfather's farm is now a resort playground for the rich.

quote:

ORIGINAL: avro101
Yes MAAC can change and be more successful in the years ahead, these fears about losing our FAI roots are from a small minority that fear losing their FAI heiachry in maac, but in turn have not come up with a plan for the future.

Why must MAAC abandon it's roots to change? This I don't get ... the only change being discussed here is demolition, not construction. What would you build in place of FAI, another parking lot?

quote:

ORIGINAL: avro101
Maybe the profits from the FAI world glider champs should have been used to pay ACC fees instead of providing a perk for themselves.


... and maybe, those who chose to get off their posteriors and actually accomplish something positive should be allowed the option of determining their own destiny.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: avro101
Compare MAAC today from 20 years ago. Are these FAI ACC maac members thinking about maac or themselves first?


Ok, I was around 20 years ago. Not competing in FAI then but, daring to dream that perhaps one day.....

Perhaps the question should be, "who are you thinking of"?

You would deny all who desire to compete at an international level the right to do so, the right of Canadians to be represented on the world stage .... all for the sake of the price of a cup of coffee? Sad. Simply sad.

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