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RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 12:01:36 AM   
j79


 

Posts: 37
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: To, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Another shot at the lowly sport flyer in maac!
quote:

There's nothing wrong with only being interested in sport flying



(in reply to DSLarkin)
       Post #: 126

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 12:56:50 AM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

Now this is getting silly.....

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       Post #: 127

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:03:18 AM   
Sharpy01



Posts: 600
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Kenora, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		I don't care for the notion that FAI competition is the only competition worthy of our support and the inference that if you do not support the FAI, you do not support competition generally. An honest look at competition in Canada would likely reveal the FAI isn't a very big part of it and to suggest blanket "non-support" is unfair.

That said. My experience on the board with FAI issues taints my view of the "Is it worth it?" question. I would have to say, "no". I have found very little of the "good nature" surrounding FAI issues since I became an active MAAC member. It's a constant source of internal strife and has been divisive every time it comes to the forefront... ie: ACC/Rick Ried affair, World Scale 2002, financal losses, and even a successful event like the World Glider event became divisive within the organizing body. I cannot look at the whole picture logically and see the value in something that is the catalyst of so much grief and bad feelings. That's my opinion and it's ok. I also recognize there are some very dedicated and good people who disagree with me............that's ok too.

Will I actively campaign to dump the FAI from MAAC's madate? Nope.
However, if there was some kind of FAI referendum that gave us a vote, I'd vote to dump it.

Personally, I think the $16000.00 a year could be used much more productively to promote competition WITHIN this country. Ie: setting up a fund that would encourage regional comps involving the most "membership active" SIGS with the regional winners having their expenses paid to attend a true national championships?

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)
       Post #: 128

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:25:59 AM   
extra300xs


 

Posts: 30
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: toronto, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		More from the King of Spin
quote:

But MAAC did do a survey and found that competition was widely supported.


What the heck does widely supported mean?

I widely support the Liberals, NDP, and Bloc, and PC too but in January I have to make a choice.

Widely supported - what spin.

(in reply to j79)
       Post #: 129

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 12:48:17 PM   
DSLarkin


 

Posts: 136
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Picton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

What the heck does widely supported mean?


-78% and change

- I already gave this figure in a recent related post, and of course the results were published in our magazine. Sometimes I wonder if we all read the magazine.

(in reply to extra300xs)
       Post #: 130

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 1:29:44 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
I don't care for the notion that FAI competition is the only competition worthy of our support


I haven't seen anyone spinning this angle ... where do you get that impression?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... and the inference that if you do not support the FAI, you do not support competition ...

FAI is the only truly international competition. If you re-phrase to include "do not support international competition" then you would be right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... An honest look at competition in Canada would likely reveal the FAI isn't a very big part of it ...


And, by defininition, never can be. The same holds true for the Olympics. I'm not comparing the FAI to the Olympics in terms of scale but, the model is almost identical. You cannot expect the various sports represented in the Olympics to have a vast number of participants at the World level when only a few can meet the criteria....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... and to suggest blanket "non-support" is unfair....

Schoolyard rule.... come out swinging and expect a hit below the belt.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
That said. My experience on the board with FAI issues taints my view of the "Is it worth it?" question. I would have to say, "no". I have found very little of the "good nature" surrounding FAI issues since I became an active MAAC member. It's a constant source of internal strife and has been divisive every time it comes to the forefront...


A handful of people raise a big stink on public Internet sites, and some internal politicians use the controversy to play internal power struggle empire building and poser games. If it wasn't FAI it would be something else. The subject is unimportant, it's the platforms that can be built on it. The soft underbelly of any large organisation. This is not an FAI problem, it's a human condition problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... However, if there was some kind of FAI referendum that gave us a vote, I'd vote to dump it. ...


Well there you have it. Thanks man! I appreciate the fact that you would deny Canadian modellers the right to compete internationally simply because you can't handle the controversy (much of which you are a prime contributer to)... really THANKS!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
Personally, I think the $16000.00 a year could be used much more productively to promote competition WITHIN this country. Ie: setting up a fund that would encourage regional comps involving the most "membership active" SIGS with the regional winners having their expenses paid to attend a true national championships?


Those funds were provided for you to use at your discression when you were a ZD ... and why wasn't that money spent to promote such an idea?

<SOAPBOX>
Local, Regional, National competition, I support them all. Contrary to what some pop psychologists may tell you, competition is good for the soul. It builds character not only in the discipline required to compete or the thrill of success but, in learning how to deal with failure and grow as person as a result of the experience. There is a sickness growing among us. Kids are not being taught basics like sweat equity, and dealing with failure in a positive way, in many cases they're not even permitted to fail. This pop psychology where no one keeps score and "everyone wins" may be fun (much like a social Funfly) but doesn't do much for our development as a mature, contributing adult. Whatever happened to "sense of accomplishment" and "pride in achievement" and "learning from your mistakes" and "striving to do better"? More an more I see the "if I can't win, I don't wanna play" and now I'm seeing the emergence of the "if I can't win, no one is gonna play" attitude. Sick.
</SOAPBOX>

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       Post #: 131

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 1:57:29 PM   
DSLarkin


 

Posts: 136
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Picton, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		It's certainly fair to say that not supporting international competition does not mean that one doesn't support competition.

But I'm not certain that putting money to encourage regional competition is the answer. This money was available through the zone directors, though some used it to hand out kits. This doesn't mean that I don't support regional competition - I do. Diverting the FAI money to regional competition accomplishes only one thing for sure - no Canadian modeller could compete in a world championship. If that's what you want then say so. And enabling Canadian modellers to compete in world championships is one of the reasons why we have a national organisation. If you don't like that, feel free to start a national organisation based on not doing things.

Nor would I endorse only supporting the most popular SIGs. To my mind this is starting the process of exclusion. The wide variety of ways in which we can enjoy our hobby is the factor which makes it so special. I fly mostly sport R/C, but I also fly vintage (free flight and R/C), soaring (flat and slope) and I like to tinker with rotary wing planes, particularly autogyros. I'm interested in what the other flyer is doing, particularly when he is breaking new ground as has been the case in indoor R/C. And I like to stay current in the areas in which I used to fly and compete - Control line for example. And I appreciate a good scale model, whether it is R/C, control line or free flight. I enjoy doing the different things, like running diesels. MAAC is about supporting all disciplines, though not necessarily equally. I hope I can always learn from what the other guy is doing.

FAI competition is only divisive because we have a few people who make it their business to make it divisive. And Marc, you have told me to my face that you find all competition divisive and unethical.

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 132

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:28:03 PM   
gingertoad


 

Posts: 64
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Prescott, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01


Will I actively campaign to dump the FAI from MAAC's madate? Nope.
However, if there was some kind of FAI referendum that gave us a vote, I'd vote to dump it.



There are fewer people flying turbines, than fly in FAI events. Turbines are inherently more dangerous than the rubber powered free flight models that I most often fly. My insurance costs within MAAC would be lower if we tossed out the turbine flyers.

Do I want this to happen? Would I vote in favour of a turbine ban? Not for one second.

The major accident that cost every one of us in insurance increases was a 40 powered trainer. So, to save some money, we should ban 40 powered trainers? I don't think so.

To put matters in perspective, would I set out to vote in favour of eliminating the participation of any group from within MAAC for $1.50 per member? Absolutely not.

At the last referenmum, three quarters of our membership also agreed that all aspects of the hobby should be supported, including international competition.

MAAC is for all members, sport, competition, gliders, turbines, helicopters, old timers, glow, gas, rubber, ... for everyone.

Once and for all, can we all be less selfish?

I gladly pay whatever portion of my dues is used to support universality.

Richard Barlow

(in reply to Sharpy01)
       Post #: 133

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:34:41 PM   
j79


 

Posts: 37
Joined: 10/29/2005
From: To, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		I do not believe that any claims have been made on the maac insurance due to turbines

I do not believe the insurance company asks how many maac flyers fly turbines maac has.

I think the statment below is more spin and bs.

quote:

My insurance costs within MAAC would be lower if we tossed out the turbine flyers.

(in reply to gingertoad)
       Post #: 134

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:42:10 PM   
gingertoad


 

Posts: 64
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Prescott, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: j79

I do not believe that any claims have been made on the maac insurance due to turbines

I do not believe the insurance company asks how many maac flyers fly turbines maac has.

I think the statment below is more spin and bs.

quote:

My insurance costs within MAAC would be lower if we tossed out the turbine flyers.



As insurance chairman for MAAC, I can assure you that we have been asked questions on all aspects of what we fly, how big they are, how fast they travel etc. Our rates are based partly on our answers and partly on the insurance companies own research on risk factors and accident rates for models on a world wide basis.

It is no spin to say that if we restricted our flying to low weight, slow flying, non-inflamable models that our insurance rates would drop.

That being said, THAT IS THE LAST THING THAT I WANT TO SEE HAPPEN

Our hobby is INCLUSIVE not EXCLUSIVE

Richard Barlow

(in reply to j79)
       Post #: 135

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 3:50:41 PM   
Jim_McIntyre



Posts: 2078
Joined: 4/5/2002
From: Claremont, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: j79

I do not believe that any claims have been made on the maac insurance due to turbines

I do not believe the insurance company asks how many maac flyers fly turbines maac has.

I think the statment below is more spin and bs.

quote:

My insurance costs within MAAC would be lower if we tossed out the turbine flyers.



No ... it's opinion ... and given the difficulty the AMA is having with insuring turbines, I tend to agree with it.

And.... it was just an example. You missed the point altogether.
Richard could just as easily chosen free flight as his example. The point was, there are different levels of support needed for the different disciplines. Just because you choose not to participate in a particular activity is not good cause for removing it in some attempt to save a loonie annually. That's simply selfish.

J79, your continued vituperation is not contributing anything positive. You seem bent on creating an "us vs. them" confrontation. What you don't get is there really aren't two sides. As one of the dreaded "FAI people", you may meet me sport flying at most of the local events, and you might even catch me park flying to get in a fix (even though I live within 3 km of 2 clubs and am a member of both) or teaching a newbie, or flying a demo for the scouts or manning the MAAC booth at an event or.....

< Message edited by Jim_McIntyre -- 1/12/2006 3:51:45 PM >

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       Post #: 136

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 4:44:57 PM   
gingertoad


 

Posts: 64
Joined: 6/21/2005
From: Prescott, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		As I read through the various posts, I am struck by one great truth.

The vituperation (love that word!), diatribe, innuendo, spin, assault on the values of others, and self-centred pontificating mostly emanate from anonymous sources. The people who hide behind pseudonyms and website nicknames.

The data, documentation, authoritative information and the desire to be fair and inclusive usually comes from those that are not afraid to be identified and always sign their names.

Makes one wonder or

Choose which group you support!

Richard Barlow

(in reply to Jim_McIntyre)
       Post #: 137

RE: FAI - 1/12/2006 4:57:57 PM   
kevin mcgrath


 

Posts: 732
Joined: 1/24/2002
From: Sault Ste Marie, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Makes one wonder too how many names OL KK is registered under?


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MAAC 6401L,CD.

(in reply to gingertoad)