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RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/13/2006 10:05:13 PM   
Glacier Girl



Posts: 6888
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: SomewhereIn, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Ok since this forum has gone above and beyond the initial intent of the #1 posted question, and that there are many who do belong to the AMA and have an understanding of its laws and such, posting here.
I have a hypothetical question.
I own 225 acres of property that I fly on, on a very irregular basis.
Now if an AMA club were to set up shop within 3 miles of my flying area, and I was to get shot down because of their actions, would they and the AMA take liability for it?
Not wanting to get into arguing proving and such that they did it, like I said, it's a hypothetical question.
So would they be in the wrong by not fully investigating other flyers in the area? Which in my case would be tresspassing to get to where I fly to ask me, or someone having to go through the trust set up, that I own the property through, to get my info to contact me.
And does the, "I was there first and own my own property" come into play?

Not meaninng to start anything, just that question has been on my mind. And yes I am an Outlaw, and yes I did check for AMA clubs in the area. None.

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       Post #: 351

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/13/2006 11:15:01 PM   
b.bixel


 

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: Marysville, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

Now if an AMA club were to set up shop within 3 miles of my flying area, and I was to get shot down because of their actions, would they and the AMA take liability for it?

So would they be in the wrong by not fully investigating other flyers in the area?

And does the, "I was there first and own my own property" come into play?




Great questions to make one think I must say....

"...and I was to get shot down because of their actions, would they and the AMA take liability for it?" I'm guessing no as AMA coverage doesn't cover airplanes. I would hope the offender would step up and make good, but proving it may be tough.

"...So would they be in the wrong by not fully investigating other flyers in the area?" I think it may be a lengthy process to go door to door for a 3 mi radius. I guess non-AMA folks might post where they are flying at the LHS. This way when new clubs are mapping a flying site they will know where others can be found and contacted. The new AMA club needs to do everthing it can to fly safely for all parties. That would include a freq agreement with you if at all possible. All hypothetically of course.

"And does the, "I was there first and own my own property" come into play?" Don't have a clue regarding this one???

Regards,
Bart



(in reply to Glacier Girl)
       Post #: 352

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/13/2006 11:43:41 PM   
BasinBum



Posts: 5717
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Hawthorne, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Whoever was there first makes no differance as everyone is entitled to use the public frequencies alloted for RC. Without knowing you are flying at your home on an irregular basis I don't think the hypothetical club members would know you are there and I don't think you could consider them responsible for a shoot down.

So basically the question becomes what would a resonabley prudent hobbiest do to to ensure that they are not interfering with others? I don't think there is anything that could be done to find anyone that might take up the hobby at any given point in time and fly on their own property. Once it is known that the situation exists there is much that can be done but, that wasn't the question posed.

(in reply to b.bixel)
       Post #: 353

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/14/2006 12:02:19 AM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2300
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

Ok since this forum has gone above and beyond the initial intent of the #1 posted question, and that there are many who do belong to the AMA and have an understanding of its laws and such, posting here.
I have a hypothetical question.
I own 225 acres of property that I fly on, on a very irregular basis.
Now if an AMA club were to set up shop within 3 miles of my flying area, and I was to get shot down because of their actions, would they and the AMA take liability for it?


No. Per FCC rules, you are required to accept interference on the frequencies allocated for R/C of model aircraft. The AMA insurance contains an exclusion for property damage due to frequency interference, so AMA clearly won't take liability for damage to your model or other property damaged when you got shot down. Whether or not the individual AMA/club member that shot you down could be held liable is up to a court to decide, if you sue him and can prove he negligently caused you to lose control of your model. Bodily injury is not excluded by the insurance, so if somebody is injured by the crash of your model, AMA could theoretically be liable, if it is legally established that their insured negligently caused interference that resulted in loss of control of your model that led to the injury. That seems a very long shot - much more likely you will be held liable for the injury your model caused.

quote:



Not wanting to get into arguing proving and such that they did it, like I said, it's a hypothetical question.


The issue of proving they did it seems the most improbable part of the hypothetical situation.

quote:



So would they be in the wrong by not fully investigating other flyers in the area? Which in my case would be tresspassing to get to where I fly to ask me, or someone having to go through the trust set up, that I own the property through, to get my info to contact me.
And does the, "I was there first and own my own property" come into play?

Not meaninng to start anything, just that question has been on my mind. And yes I am an Outlaw, and yes I did check for AMA clubs in the area. None.


"Would they be in the wrong....?" I would think so at some level on a moral and ethical basis, but not for any reason of legality, if they had some good reason to think you were flying R/C models on your property. As the scenario you depicted apparently gives them no reason to expect that you are, there is no reason they should have to hunt you down. That would infer some obligation to contact every property owner within a circumscribed area of about 30 sq miles surrounding "where they set up shop." That just isn't reasonable.
"I was there first and own my own property" never comes into play as far as the law (FCC) is concerned. By their rules, the party that is actively operating on a frequency is "there first" and it is illegal to intentionally interfere with him. Protocol is to wait until the channel is clear before transmitting. There are no published standards for determining if a channel is clear. If you turn on your receiver and it doesn't detect a transmission, presumably that is sufficient as far as FCC is concerned. It's not foolproof - the transmission path from a nearby transmitter on the same frequency may be blocked by terrain when you check, yet a clear path when your model is airborne. That's the breaks. You don't get a guarantee from FCC, and that is probably why the clause that requires you to accept interference exists.

Abel



< Message edited by abel_pranger -- 2/14/2006 12:03:26 AM >

(in reply to Glacier Girl)
       Post #: 354

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/14/2006 1:03:37 AM   
Live Wire


 

Posts: 3778
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Sterling , CO, USA
Status: offline 		You no the Out Law flyer does not start out that way but is molded by his fellow flyers Think about it and you will agree

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(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 355

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/14/2006 12:32:53 PM   
Glacier Girl



Posts: 6888
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: SomewhereIn, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Guys,
Thanks for the input. Yes I understand it was a wide set of circumstances, like I said it was hypothetical. So yes the unknown flyer in these cases may not have a leg to stand on.
My point, obviously not stated clear enough by yours truly, was the concept of the "club" not doing a proper check of the area. Granted, I believe your rules only cover other AMA sites/members for interference violations, and that the "outlaws" are considered non existing.
So I guess it would boil down to who had the best lawyer, proving that the club in my hypothetical question didn't go far enough in checking for safety issues with a non existing flyer per se. That's why I posted the question as I couldn't come up with an answer.
Kinda like the old which came first, the chicken or the egg debate.
Would be one heck of a Perry Mason case though.

Just my opinion. We all need to get along. Be we Outlaw or AMA we all have to use the same resource(frequencies). No one has a "right" to it. If a problem exists, work it out.
Both sides need to understand the consequences to their actions. Honestly I tend to fault the AMA to a point, the MFG's aren't going to make you become a member to fly their product,they will never take the chance of loosing sales, the AMA needs to step up and be the leader of this hobby that they say they are. I frequent quite a few LHS, and I've NEVER seen anything about the AMA in any of them. How do you expect a "newbie" to know about the AMA if the AMA is not present. Instead of lamenting about "the problem" why isn't the AMA doing something constuctive about it. I've asked a couple of the owners of the LHS's about the AMA, I either get the "deer in the headlights" look, or a "I don't know" answer.
The AMA needs to become the voice it is supposed to be. From what I've read the outlaws are a bigger group then the members. Why?
Is it the cost for membership? I doubt it, we spend more on our toys in one day then that.
I honestly believe it's the ignorance of the public to the AMA.
Just like my hypothetical question, if they don't know you exist how can they know you are there?
I think the AMA needs to actually get back into this facet of the hobby, it's probably the biggest group there is. I don't think it's going to go away.
The AMA needs to get out there and educate the "newbies", they need to get them right in the beginning, when they first grab that RTF off the store shelf. Is it going to take some work? Yes it will, but if the AMA want's to fix a problem they need to go to work and actually do something about it. Just like the frequency issues, pretending they do not exist, does not make them go away. I read a lot of these AMA posts, and again it's only my opinion from what I've read, but to me it seems like the AMA leaders are sitting on their collective thrones in Muncie.
Sorry about the soapbox, but I just felt it was time someone said something as to why the outlaws don't join the AMA. More later, maybe a new forum I should start.
Brad

_____________________________

"The Missing Man Formation"
Looking heavenward you cannot help but shed a tear...mornful...lonesome...a hole that screams out almost as loudly as the roar of the engines that pass over head.

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       Post #: 356

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/14/2006 5:27:15 PM   
b.bixel


 

Posts: 264
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: Marysville, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Right on about getting along. We all should do our best to eliminate possible interference.

IMO, it is the $58 that keeps most (not all) non-club folks from joining the AMA. I think the perception is what am I getting for my coin?

To be honest I join because the land owner where I fly requires it. Another reason is I like to go to other club events and they require AMA as well. It's something I just live with.

Bart

(in reply to Glacier Girl)
       Post #: 357

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/14/2006 7:22:59 PM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2300
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl

<snip>
The AMA needs to get out there and educate the "newbies", they need to get them right in the beginning, when they first grab that RTF off the store shelf. Is it going to take some work? Yes it will, but if the AMA want's to fix a problem they need to go to work and actually do something about it. Just like the frequency issues, pretending they do not exist, does not make them go away. I read a lot of these AMA posts, and again it's only my opinion from what I've read, but to me it seems like the AMA leaders are sitting on their collective thrones in Muncie.
Sorry about the soapbox, but I just felt it was time someone said something as to why the outlaws don't join the AMA. More later, maybe a new forum I should start.
Brad


Brad-

Not going to be an apologist for the AMA administration of the last ten years or so. Some things are changing of late, and it comes from some relatively new blood on the EC. The proposal outlined here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470067 does address this issue. It was presented at the last EC meeting and passed, with some tweaks - from what I have heard the final version will have a higher weight limit and allow brushless motors and LiPo batteries. Aimed at 'getting along' with electric flyers, certainly representing the largest segment of non-AMA modelers and possibly surpassing AMA numbers by an order of magnitude. Still waiting for some action regarding 'traditional' powered models; perhaps the 'Buddy Box Program' mentioned in EC minutes, so far sans disclosure of any details, will address this group.

Abel

(in reply to Glacier Girl)
       Post #: 358

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/15/2006 4:11:39 PM   
Glacier Girl



Posts: 6888
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: SomewhereIn, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Able,
That is definitely a start in the right direction.
But they need to go farther. Access to the clubs for guidance and intro to the AMA is great.
But again if they don't know about it, they will probably never use it.
Like I said before getting the MFG's to change their sales policies is never going to happen, as to proving you are an AMA member before being allowed to buy their product.
But the AMA can go to the sellers, as most are known to the AMA members.
I'm talking about the LHS's and most of the internet shop keepers.
Get them involved, sales are their life. Selling to someone with little or no experience, and then recieving a notice of intent to sue, because of their customer's actions, and the sellers lack of action, will get their attention pretty quick. Get the AMA out there, explaining the perils involved, show them why they must educate the newbies.
Imagine this scenario. Little Johnnie pops into the LHS to buy the new WizzBang bird he sees in the window. As he plops down his cash, the owner asks him if he's flown before and does he know about the AMA and local flying Clubs in the area. How hard is that?
The owner armed with the info and maybe even some paperwork from the AMA, has started the process. With the clubs involvement, Johnnie recieves a phone call from one of the members. "Hey Johnnie, this is Abel from the local club, Ray down at the LHS said you just got a new plane". "Why don't you and your Dad swing by the club on Wed night, we have a get together for any new flyers" "We can show you how to get your new bird together correctly, and we can even set up a training buddy, to help you learn to fly safely".
SLAM DUNK. You now have the newbie baited, when he bites and shows up at the meeting, you now have the chance to reel him and his Dad in. Dad will see the commitment to safety, son will no longer be out flying on his own. You have the chance to gain 2 members.
With the club members help, along with the sellers, the AMA now has a strong chance of gaining membership.
Granted you will never get them all, but getting them in the begining, is going to be better for all involved.
COST?????? Some printing costs, and a little time from all involved.
RESULTS???? You now have new members of the club and the AMA, the club members have one less person to worry about interfering on their frequencies. And when it works out you have an additional salesman for both the club and the AMA. And the LHS? He now has a customer who will send his buddies to them as he knows the LHS cares.
And Johnnie? He now has a lot more friends, and he knows how to fly safely.

_____________________________

"The Missing Man Formation"
Looking heavenward you cannot help but shed a tear...mornful...lonesome...a hole that screams out almost as loudly as the roar of the engines that pass over head.

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 359

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/15/2006 6:41:18 PM   
rsallen13



Posts: 538
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Montgomery, IL, USA
Status: offline 		You want a sure fire way to get all of the Hobby Shops and interent mail order companies involved?

Pay them a $1.00 commision on every one they sign up as a full paid regular member of AMA.

$1.00 out of $58 is just under a 2% commision. Or add a $2 convience fee and now its $60 or $3 out of $60 for a nice 5% commission.

I would bet that by the end of the first year you could double the number of AMA Members.

I would bet that Tower and Horizon would have the item as a pop up or line item in your bill everytime you purchased a plane, radio or engine.
Click the link to see what it is, enter your AMA number and it goes away until next year.

My 2 cents.

< Message edited by rsallen13 -- 2/15/2006 6:44:54 PM >

(in reply to Glacier Girl)
       Post #: 360

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/15/2006 9:49:51 PM   
bdavison


 

Posts: 3334
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Estes model rockets puts a little flyer in every box that asks you to join the National Association of Rocketry.....never seen a single AMA flyer in a box....why is that?



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RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/15/2006 10:11:58 PM   
rsallen13



Posts: 538
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Montgomery, IL, USA
Status: offline 		I've seen information on the AMA in quite a few contruction manauls. Most recently in the E-Flite Ultimate, but no application.

(in reply to bdavison)
       Post #: 362

RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/20/2006 11:28:53 PM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3265
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I see some folks trying to get the Alameda air station to go AMA club.... wasn't that an open flying space or am I thinking of some other spot... I stayed at the Pumpikin Patch streetflying by Sheldons and didn't know Alameda much.

What's the real skinny (non-ama side of the story) on the Alameda NAS going to AMA?

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Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

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RE: Outlaw flyers - 2/24/2006 2:00:08 AM   
Live Wire


 

Posts: 3778
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Sterling , CO, USA
Status: offline 		Out Law What is an Out Law after to Night I am a ANGEL What in the H!!! is going on in this hobby. New Bees with Helli's and 3'ds you have to be kidding and right in the street in front of their home

_____________________________

Larry K AMA 36417
WACO Brotherhood #34

(in reply to KidEpoxy)