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RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 3:04:30 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3771
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

//snip//
Don't think there should be. There are flyers with AMA and flyers with out AMA. Only die-hard AMA members label the non-AMA flyers as "outlaws".



Just how do you define "....die-hard AMA members...?" I am one of AMA's biggest critics. I constantly strive to do positive things for AMA. I get rejected time after time. I don't gripe about that which I am not willing to work to make better. Do I qualify as a "....die-hard AMA member..." or as an AMA basher? Many say the latter. I say neither, as I perceive myself as an avid AMA supporter, morally and financially. (MA 01-06 p.188)
However I consider any RCer that does not join the AMA as an OUTLAW RCer. In this forum, I hear OUTLAWS p & Ming about not being able to use AMA Chartered Club facilities, boasting they will never join AMA, and other such crap, yet they have no problem using any and every benefit that AMA, and the Chartered Clubs have all labored to provide. Keeping this sport legal has not been easy. Those that refuse to assist are definitely IMO Outlaws as far as the overall sport is concerned.

When I was still working, I supported my union, the Airline Pilot's Association, which I also found to have many irregularities, yet if I was to take advantage of the benefits of their negotiations, I felt it my responsibility to support those negotiating in my behalf. There also I did do volunteer support and additional financial support to ALPA. In addition by doing my duty to provide my passengers with the best and safest flights possible, I also supported my company, which never gave a DA_N about the individual pilot other than what it could screw and/or finagle out of him/her. Still the company provided my employment therefore I also had a duty to perform for the company.
The non-ALPA types known as SCABS would screw everyone every chance they got be it a fellow pilot, the union, and/or the company. Unfortunately there are a number of people that I would never care to have had to share a foxhole with or have on my wing. I did have to have some in my cockpit from time to time, and they were treated as professionals and expected to perform as such. However a Scab is a Scab and those RC model aviators that know of AMA and refuse to support the overall program are, as far as I am concerned -- OUTLAWS.

Edit: replace a word.

< Message edited by Hossfly -- 1/1/2006 3:14:52 AM >

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

(in reply to SoCal GliderGuider)
       Post #: 26

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 3:13:45 AM   
Loubud



Posts: 7213
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Ventura, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Not to worry Horsegnat, you are still looked at as you always were. The guy that can't get elected and one that likes to use "snip" in quotes a lot. Rant as much as you like but leave the name calling to family members.

_____________________________

Vegetarian. Old Indian saying meaning Lousy Hunter.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 27

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 3:21:44 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3771
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loubud

Not to worry Horsegnat, SNIP Rant as much as you like but leave the name calling to family members.



Who is Horsegnat? Haven't seen that call-sign here. Is that a member of your family?

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

(in reply to Loubud)
       Post #: 28

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 3:23:18 AM   
Loubud



Posts: 7213
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Ventura, CA, USA
Status: offline 		HA HA HA HA HA HA
Sucker

_____________________________

Vegetarian. Old Indian saying meaning Lousy Hunter.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 29

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 3:31:46 AM   
Kmot



Posts: 7713
Joined: 6/11/2003
From: Northridge, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Here's an Outlaw flier!



_____________________________

DRILL BABY DRILL!!!

(in reply to Loubud)
       Post #: 30

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 4:04:20 AM   
lnjfarms



Posts: 53
Joined: 2/9/2002
From: Norwood, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Loubud

you are correct. We do get together and have cook outs and flyins and poke fun at our electric only members and they in turn try to convert those of us who fly slimers. Also there is a large group that fly strictly indoors in the winter months. One group is its own distinct nonAMA club the Jim Dandy flyers who use highschool jims to fly in all over the state. Most of us own our own flying fields or have friends who own their own full sized aircraft fields and let us use them.
The current project is building starting stands for the glow aircraft. I happen to have my own sawmill so am looking into getting the wood for everyone to build a starting stand.

John McKinney
Outlaw flyers of Missouri

< Message edited by lnjfarms -- 1/1/2006 4:12:14 AM >

(in reply to BasinBum)
       Post #: 31

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 4:55:47 AM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Horrace, There can sometimes be a fine line between private and public use. If a club has contracted with a municipality to use public lands they may also have to share it with the non AMA public -- also known as tax payers. Are these "outlaws"?

Personally I think that all public lands should be open to anyone that wants to fly on them -- club or no club. I also think that a club given special use of such lands should be given a certain amount of control as to who flies there. This does not mean mandating AMA membership but there could be a requirement for a reasonable amount of personal liability insurance. Notice I said _reasonable_.

It's better for all to have flyers in one area and under the same frequency control than to chase them off to far corners of the park or right next door on private but unimproved lands. Then spread spectrum is going to eliminate the frequency board.

_____________________________

Any Lift Is Good Lift!!!

(in reply to lnjfarms)
       Post #: 32

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 5:04:42 AM   
Loubud



Posts: 7213
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Ventura, CA, USA
Status: offline 		It may not be Spread Spektrum that does in the AMA or the AMA clubs.. American ingenuity goes a long way. If model rocketry can fly, be insured and have absolutley no connection to the AMA, Then it is clear that other things can fly, be insured and have no connection to the AMA. There are more rc Tx's on the horrizon than the Spektrum tho that will prove to be a good system in itself. The AMA runs on the insurance salesman theory. Oh my Gawd, what if? I like to call it the Chicken Little Theory. Rest easy Horsefly. You have your own private field to run basic FM on.
Edited for those old guys.

< Message edited by Loubud -- 1/1/2006 5:06:10 AM >

_____________________________

Vegetarian. Old Indian saying meaning Lousy Hunter.

(in reply to SoCal GliderGuider)
       Post #: 33

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 5:33:03 AM   
the troll



Posts: 842
Joined: 2/6/2003
From: right 'round here someplace
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lnjfarms

There are a considerable number of us who fly RC and refuse to become AMA members. The reasons are various. How do we go about getting our own sub heading in the forums.
thanks
John Mckinney
Outlaw Flyers of Missouri


There is already a forum for outlaws. It is the clubhouse. LOL

Actually given the definition some here have, those that belong to the AMA must be in-laws. I guess that fits just right...in-laws always meddle in your business, tell you what you must do, hang around too long during the holidays and have smelly feet.


_____________________________

oops...could have signed with something humorous...oh well… maybe tomorrow…

(in reply to lnjfarms)
       Post #: 34

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 6:59:24 AM   
SoCal GliderGuider


 

Posts: 1207
Joined: 3/23/2004
From: SoCal, CA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Loubud

It may not be Spread Spektrum that does in the AMA or the AMA clubs.. American ingenuity goes a long way. If model rocketry can fly, be insured and have absolutley no connection to the AMA, Then it is clear that other things can fly, be insured and have no connection to the AMA. There are more rc Tx's on the horrizon than the Spektrum tho that will prove to be a good system in itself. The AMA runs on the insurance salesman theory. Oh my Gawd, what if? I like to call it the Chicken Little Theory. Rest easy Horsefly. You have your own private field to run basic FM on.
Edited for those old guys.


Rocketry is banded in most communities. Unrationally I must say.

When I said spread spectrum I was not refering specifally to SpektrumRC. I'm refering to the use of the 2.4GHz band for remote control. This eliminates the frequency pin board management as a means of controlling local flying.

Now the insurance is another matter.



_____________________________

Any Lift Is Good Lift!!!

(in reply to Loubud)
       Post #: 35

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 4:07:01 PM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Leave Horrace alone. He has turned over a new leaf and has been trying hard to be good.
You have to give credit, he's a guy who has been TRYING to make changes, he had the guts to run for office.

Outlaws?

Me, I'm a die-hard AMA supporter, but I have NO problem with anyone who does not want to join. NO problem. You want whatever benefits $58 a year gives you? Great! Don't want it? No sweat, either. You still fly models. No problem.
You are not "scabs" or "outlaws" or anything else, just fellow modellers.
What's the problem?
That's MY take on it.

(in reply to SoCal GliderGuider)
       Post #: 36

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 4:17:55 PM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoCal GliderGuider

Horrace, There can sometimes be a fine line between private and public use. If a club has contracted with a municipality to use public lands they may also have to share it with the non AMA public -- also known as tax payers. Are these "outlaws"?

Personally I think that all public lands should be open to anyone that wants to fly on them -- club or no club. I also think that a club given special use of such lands should be given a certain amount of control as to who flies there. This does not mean mandating AMA membership but there could be a requirement for a reasonable amount of personal liability insurance. Notice I said _reasonable_.

It's better for all to have flyers in one area and under the same frequency control than to chase them off to far corners of the park or right next door on private but unimproved lands. Then spread spectrum is going to eliminate the frequency board.


The reason why so many public spaces demand AMA for insurance is that AMA insurance is easily verified. You have the card for this year, you are covered, and AMA has valid insurance and assets to back it, etc.
SFA insurance, or UMA insurance, well, anybody ever hear of a SINGLE claim being paid out?

When you talk about a $159 liability policy for a whole club, I have to LAUGH. Does the insurer actually know you are flying model airplanes, or what the risk is? See those 75 pages of fine print that comes with the policy? Each and every page contains a different "out" for the insurer not to pay. And they won't.

Insurance certificates are a piece of cake to fake. You get a liability policy and you make copies of "additional insured" certificates, fill in the landowner at the space on the bottom, and that's that. Who is going to call to check with the insurer?

I have seen clubs on public land that DID take SFA, for the reasons you state, that it's public land, and any insurance should do, so if you want to argue the point with your local park rangers, have at it. Legally, you are in the right. But practically speaking, most parks just accept that AMA is real and valid and manageable, and don't want to get into verifying everybody's various insurance policies.

(in reply to SoCal GliderGuider)
       Post #: 37

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 4:50:36 PM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: shag555

Have any of you guys noticed how much b******g and complaining there is on the AMA posts? This forum area makes RC'ing depressing. It's bad enough that I've got cabin fever due to that fact that it's winter out there! I'm going back to my basement and build something before I get sucked into this HUGE black hole in rcuniverse.

MPB


Oh, TOTALLY! And here I am getting myself sucked back into this pointless nonsense AGAIN! You are so right.

(in reply to shag555)
       Post #: 38

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 8:57:09 PM   
Loubud



Posts: 7213
Joined: 8/2/2004
From: Ventura, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Easytiger,
You're write about picking on Hossfly. I'll stop. I did read his threads on the good things AMA is doing lately. In thinking about it, Horrace might have been a good bet to go in and shake things up but he may have had a rough time by himself. To bad too. I don't think it's too late for the AMA to make the internal changes it needs to attract more members. But that is for another thread.
I found the idea of the Outlaw thread a bit intriquing. Red Scholefeild had another interesting idea. It looks as if only 10 to 15% of AMA members vote inthe AMA elections. Red's thought was that if electrics wanted to change things all they would have to do is join and change it from the inside. There are certainly enough electric flyers out there to actually make this happen. And even if the effort was made and failed, it would only be for the better. The AMA attempts to accommodate all members. With a large group voting, things just might change quicker and for the better.
Sorry for the insults Horrace.
Lou

_____________________________

Vegetarian. Old Indian saying meaning Lousy Hunter.

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
       Post #: 39

RE: Outlaw flyers - 1/1/2006 9:09:24 PM   
The Ponz


 

Posts: 15
Joined: 10/30/2005
From: CARMICHAEL, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I have been an AMA member since 1978, recently I have had the unfortunate experience to see how the AMA Vice-President does his job in my district. The question is, how many fliers would belong to AMA if it was not required at their flying site?

(in reply to EASYTIGER)