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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/16/2006 2:19:39 PM   
STG



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Thanks for all your work!

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/16/2006 11:34:47 PM   
Not24



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From: Gloucester, VA, USA
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Took the carb to work today and checked it out completely with the flow meter. I have never done this before, so I'm sure I didn't do it exactly right. What I thought I would do is to look for a restriction in the carb assembly. I used 30 psi air pressure and maxed out the meter. I then hooked up just the fuel nipple and compared flow. I then installed the fuel nipple to the spraybar and checked flow with the needle removed, installed, and both ends plugged. All of this showed no appreciable flow losses. I also calibrated the high needle to find its range of adjustment. What I found was that anything open more than 2.5 turns makes no difference in flow rate. However, there is a fairly linear drop off from that point down to closed. This means thatif it won't run rich at 2.5 turns, it will never run rich. The key now is to get enough fuel flow at 2.5 turns to get it to run rich.

I assembled the carb, with the low needle still set where it ran last, and operated the throttle barrel. This was done with the high needle at 2.5 turns open. I registered minimal flow at closed throttle, just enough to hear the hiss. At full throttle, flow was less than with the spraybar alone. Richening the low needle at full throttle will increase the flow to the same level as spraybar alone. The engine won't run well there, because the low end will then be excessively rich. The solution is to modify the slot in the carb barrel to achieve maximum flow at WOT. This was done with a pencil grinder and a carbide burr. Since the spring pushes the barrel to the right, grinding on the left side of the slot will open the hole in the spraybar by effectively richening the mixture. I only ground a small amount away, and only over an area of about 1/4 rotation, or 1/4 the length of the slot in the barrel. I used the flow meter to confirm that I was now getting maximum flow at full throttle, while still having the low needle set at the desired setting. Total material removal was less than .020", but this was enough to open the spraybar to its maximum flow rate with the low end adjusted right.

The next thing I did was to lengthen the slot at the other end to allow for the throttle barrel to close more, cutting off the flow completely, and thus, allowing me to be able to shut the engine down. Mine would never shut down instantly, as I always had to wait 30 seconds for it to quit.

The true test is in the test runs. That'll happen tomorrow evening after work.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/17/2006 7:49:08 PM   
RJConnet



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I just browsed through this thread and I'm completely blown away as it is so contrary to my experience with this engine. I bought my ST 2300 (Chinese) about eighteen months ago and right out of the box I mounted it on an old Stinger 120 that I had laying around. Set the HS needle about three turns out, choked it a few flips , lit the glow plug and it started on the first flip. I ran that tank out slobery rich. The next tank I set the low speed for a good 2200 RPM idle, turned the HS needle in for a (barely) solid 2-stroke. Third tank was in the air and the remainder of the break-in was in the air. The engine now resides in my old GP G202 and it is just great, good idle, smooth mid-range and lots of power wide-open. Using Omega 5% and APC 17-6 on the G202, The glow plug is still the one that came with the engine, have no idea what it is. This engine is probably the best $140 dollars I ever spent on an engine. I will have to admit, I have owned very few bad engines. In fact the last one I can remember was a Perky .099 that I bought in 1947, never got a pop out of it. ...........RJ

P.S. I hate pumps

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/17/2006 11:01:04 PM   
Not24



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Okay, just ran three more tanks thru the 2300. The mods I made to the metering slot may have helped, and maybe they did not. One thing is for sure, it did not do what I wanted it to do. I still can't get a rich high needle unless I crank up the fuel pressure. And likewise, I can't shut the engine down with the throttle. One would think that there is an air leak somewhere. Maybe there is. I have a GMS 47 with an air leak that won't shut down either, but it runs fine otherwise. I can restrict the air inlet with my thumb and get the high end nice and rich. When I then lean the needle with my thumb in place, I am obvoiusly down on power. The curious thing is that I was successful in tuning all three needles to a point that I now have a good 2100 rpm idle, good transition, and 8000 rpm top end with the 18-8. The best part is that it no longer goes lean with the nose pointed vertical. That was my main complaint in flight is that it was always going lean on me. I can run any power setting at any attitude, including inverted, and it is rock steady. I even shook it hard to induce some G loading, and still steady. The only other variable over all previous runs was the fuel. I had to use some old cool power 15% today. I suppose two things are possible. Either the fuel that I thought was too old is still good, and the engine likes 15%, or the engine has finally broken in to the point that all its issues are now abating. I feel like it could be the latter. There are between 3 and 4 gallons through it now, and I'm ready to stick it back on the plane. If it truly took that long to break in, it should last a good long time.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 1:08:03 AM   
speedster 1919



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Not 24 I don't have a 2300 . IS your spraybar split centered in carb bore. Maybe you can ask the guys with a 2300 at what position is their fuel inlet on their perfect running engine. Another words parallel with mount tab would be 3 oclock. maybe 5 oclock might be better or 2 oclock. Worth a try!

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 2:06:37 AM   
Not24



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Rotating the spraybar is used to lean the midrange. I don't have that problem on mine. Mine is set aiming straight down the venturi. The only issue I am having now is the high needle won't allow it to richen up. Increasing the fuel pressure doesn't work, because it floods the carb with raw fuel. I think the only thing to try is to restrict the air to match the amount of fuel available. That is essentially what the 7D and Magnum carbs do. They have smaller venturis. They also cost a few hundred rpm. Putting a sleeve in the ST carb would do essentially the same thing as changing to a 7D. The only question is what size to make the sleeve. Think I'll measure the 7D and compare it to the ST. I can make a sleeve tomorrow. I'll make a couple in different sizes.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 2:16:44 AM   
cng


 

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Like I said some time ago I run 15% omega an os f plug and 17x8 or 18x8 apc and get the same results you just described without all the research. Don't get me wrong I think it is incredible diligance on your part and I sure wish I had that much to invest in. That's what this hobby is for. All share different levels of intensity. Glad it ran good for you. I have not been interested in getting more performance then you have described because good to great is good enough for me. Thanks again for your comittment to your research. It has been nice reading all the replys. Keep up the intensity you never know where it will get you!!!

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 2:29:51 AM   
RevGQ



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Just to share an experience: one of my two St 2300's wouldn't allow me to richen the high end needle. After months of tinkering, I mounted a K&B carb. Runs great with excellent transition. I think a leak developed betwee the metal carb throat and housing.

[image][/image]

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 3:53:40 AM   
Not24



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cng

Like I said some time ago I run 15% omega an os f plug and 17x8 or 18x8 apc and get the same results you just described without all the research. Don't get me wrong I think it is incredible diligance on your part and I sure wish I had that much to invest in. That's what this hobby is for. All share different levels of intensity. Glad it ran good for you. I have not been interested in getting more performance then you have described because good to great is good enough for me. Thanks again for your comittment to your research. It has been nice reading all the replys. Keep up the intensity you never know where it will get you!!!



I can honestly say that if it were not for RC Universe, I would not be doing all this experimenting. I bought the engine because I saw it as a challenge, and I am posting all of my findings in an attempt to share my learning curve with others. I think it's great fun getting into the technicalities of the carburetor design. I'm definitely not getting frustrated. There are so many options to play with. That's what makes it fun. I think I'll make two sleeves, and size them depending on the 7D carb. One will be the same size, and whatever percentage of area that is, the other sleeve will be half of that. I already have a good baseline now. I know that 8000 is the magic number on the 18-8. If I lose a little top end, but gain an adjustable needle, I think it will be worth it. Like I said earlier, the engine runs good enough right now to fly with. I just don't like the vague high needle. I may even do some runs without the pump if this little trick works. The stock muffler is much quieter than the Bisson. I wouldn't mind going back to gravity feed again for simplicity's sake.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 4:18:40 PM   
Flyer95


 

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Not 24,
Why cant you increase the pump pressure to get rich at full throttle? Isnt it because the midrange gets very rich? and if you try to lean the idle then the engine wont idle, right?
When reducing the venturi hole the engine gets more air than fuel in the midrange and less air and a lot of fuel at WOT and I think thats exactly what you need. You can try to reduce the diameter by 1-2mm, 0,04-0,08"inches, and see how you like it. You might lose 300-400rpm at WOT but the engine gets more user friendly
I tried that on one of my problematic G4500 for 8-9 yeras ago and the engine got really sweeeet
Here is a picture of the sleeve I did.

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< Message edited by Flyer95 -- 2/18/2006 4:19:26 PM >

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 6:52:41 PM   
buzzingb


 

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Looks like it is getting pretty complicated here for most people who are accustomed to using an engine that runs without all this.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 10:10:09 PM   
Not24



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quote:

ORIGINAL: buzzingb

Looks like it is getting pretty complicated here for most people who are accustomed to using an engine that runs without all this.


Yes, it is. However, this is the type of thing that SuperTigre should be doing, not me. Apparently, the people at OS are better at engineering out these types of issues. That may also be part of why they cost more. When you buy merchandise at bargain prices, you aren't getting something somewhere. I think the manufacturing quality of this engine is acceptable, but the engineering quality is not. Remember my original approach to this engine was to see what I can get it to do with as little fuss as possible. I ran the stock setup first, in the hopes that it would be acceptable as-is. Then I changed to large fuel tubing. Then I added the fuel pump. Then came the slight modification to the metering slot,(which was the first mod to the engine), and now I am going to install a sleeve in the carb barrel. As I go through this process I eliminate all the possibilities, one at a time. I could just do what many others have done and replace the carb right now, but I am curious about the stock one. I really want to know the exact reason it doesn't act the same as an OS carb. I have the time, patience and resourses to go through this process till I reach my final conclusions about this engine. Maybe a few years ago, I wouldn't have. If I exhaust all reasonable possibilities and I'm still not satisfied, then I will buy a carb that has proven successful. Then I will tear into that one and find out why IT works and the ST carb doesn't. I appreciate everybody's interest in this topic. I wish I knew how to change the topic of the thread to ST 2300 testing and experimenting.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 10:26:02 PM   
Not24



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flyer95

Not 24,
Why cant you increase the pump pressure to get rich at full throttle? Isnt it because the midrange gets very rich? and if you try to lean the idle then the engine wont idle, right?
/quote]

My thought is that by the time the pressure is high enough to get rich wot, there is too much fuel for the engine to burn. It doesn't richen up like you would think. It goes from running clean to a little rich, then spits and pops ans quits. Maybe it has to do with atomization. Might be that the pressure gets so high that it shoots out the spraybar like a fire hose. All I know is that pressure isn't the answer. It needs to have constant pressure and a good positive flow rate, but not high pressure like a fuel injector.

The midrange does get rich at high pressure before the high end starts going south. And the low needle becomes much more sensitive at high pressure. All these things point to high fuel pressure as not being the cure.

The diameter of the hole through the barrel should be sized so that:

The engine has good fuel draw with no pump, and is less dependent on muffler pressure.
The engine will run very rich at 2.5 turns open and full throttle.
The setting of the needle valve should be somewhere around 1.5 turns for peak rpm.

Right now I don't know what the magic number is, but with a little more experimenting, I'm sure I will find it, providing that this idea does what I expect it to.

Like you said, losing a few hundred rpm and gaining a more positive high needle is a fair trade off. If it does that, I will be happy.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 2/18/2006 10:31:09 PM