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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 4:30:56 AM   
Not24



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Joined: 12/7/2002
From: Gloucester, VA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: speedster 1919



NOT24 quit asking for ideas and help on this forum if your going to take it for granted. Several have said big tigres don't like alot of nitro ,so what do you do. When you get it to run OK on 10% you want to jack with the fuel and go 15%. Do yourself a favor and go electric. It's been mentioned stay with smaller prop and you keep wanting to go bigger.


Could you please find where I have taken any advice for granted? I have read to use nothing but 0%, and others have said never use less than 20%. You must also understand that I have read many other reports on this engine than just the ones posted on this forum. I feel I have done my homework on this, and the decisions I make are based on my experience as much as advice from others. In other words, it needs to be logical and make some sort of sense. Remember, my original goal was to prove to myself that the ST carb was indeed a good carb, and that it was all simply a matter of tuning. The manufacturer and ST support, (Bax), recommend using an 18-8 or an 18-10 prop on this engine. He talks about running the engine in the 7000 rpm range. He mentions using the stock muffler with large fuel tubing. He is the one that is supposed to know how to help us. I tried all of those things, figuring that he had much more experience with these engines than I have. So why didn't it work for me? Must be I don't know what I'm doing when I adjust a carburetor.

As for the nitro content, I do believe that the report I read stating that 20% was the way to go is probably right. I like to use as little nitro as possible, strictly for economic reasons. Hell, that's why I bought this engine in the first place. I am not hard headed about not wanting to change the carb. I simply wanted to see if it is possible to get the stock one to run right before giving up on it. I was unsuccessful in that, so I went with the cheapest carb I could find that I thought would have a chance of working. It does, and I'm happy. I knew when I started this that it was going to be a long process. I also knew when I started this that other people were interested in what I was doing. So, like I told the hard one, this is all for them, not for those of you that don't need it. I could have done all this testing and not posted a single word, kept all the information to myself, and been happy. I chose to share for the benefit of those who have a legitimate interest in what I had to say. Sorry if I offended you in that process. I am not deterred.

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       Post #: 201

RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 12:54:03 PM   
Sturtz



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Joined: 9/22/2004
From: El Reno, OK, USA
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I see RCU as a public help desk for all RC hobbiest. And from the hits this thread gets every day I'd bet that there are many unhappy G2300 owners out there who simply don't post their thoughts out of habit. I personally know a dozen friends who surf here in RCU daily who have never even posted a single thing. Just not their bag I guess. Or they think thier spelling is poor.
I failed to mention a few things here on your thread Not24. Last week I got two email replies from two people who know glow engines well. Bob Brassel and Dub Jett. I had written Mr.Jett about a carb for mine. Jett Carbs and Mufflers One thing he wrote was for me to try the ST fuel first before buying his carb or muffler, etc. He said that was the way to go on the G2300 and that SuperTigre could not legally state this in their manuals because of the low oil content versus the engine design. Something to do with the warranty or something. When a guy like that tells you to try the SuperTigre fuels it must have some merit. Right ?
On the other hand,,, one of our local OKC hobby stores is owned by Mike McMurtry..... "Sean's dad." They service and sell SuperTigre, O.S. and Saito engines . He and Sean both told me they have many of these G2300s out in the local fields and the customers are happy with them after they tune them using 30% heli fuel, F-type plugs and a 17x? prop. (Can't remember exactly which pitch they said. Think it was 8.)
And as I wrote earlier,, another LHS swears it's FAI 0% fuel .

My final thoughts. Mine must be a lemon. I suspect an air leak somewhere but I'm sure it's just another case of a poorly made carb. I'm glad for the guys who have had zero troubles with this engine. And I feel for those like me with the fruit.



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       Post #: 202

RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 1:19:30 PM   
speedster 1919



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From: Martinsville, IN, USA
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If SUPER TIGRE thought 30% heli fuel was so good it would be recommended. If high nitro was so good why does ST have a special blend of 10%-10%. 2300 doesn't really fall into that blend. If I was an LHS I'd push 30% for more profit. NOT24 ,you live in VA. How close are you to torque wrench. Let's see if he has magic fingers. I don't remember BAX recommending 20%. With 10% oil you have to be a perfect tuner. Not24 ,if you don't like that much nitro limit to 10%.

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       Post #: 203

RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 1:37:53 PM   
Evil Homer


 

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For those without the tools to make up the carb adapter for the smaller carbs, there is one available which was supplied with the 25cc ST using the 60-90 size carb:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFY95&P=X

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       Post #: 204

RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 2:59:23 PM   
Cyclic Hardover



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From: New Mexico, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Not24

Hey there Cyclic! Do me a small favor and stop trying to undermine what I am doing here. If you don't agree with what's going on, then just stay away. I'm glad your engine runs so well, but, as you can see from this thread, many others do not. You are not my target audience. The guys that need help, are. Stop being a spoiler and just allow this process to work itself through without any more negative remarks. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. I'm sure we all will appreciate it. Have a nice day!


Okay, I am a guy who claims to have a G2300 that runs bad, based on whatever it is your doing, what is it your suggesting me to do about it. I'm serious here. or I am a buyer and now you need to convince me to get a 2300 because everything I am reading here is is telling me to stay as far away as possible from a Super Tiger. If you want an engine with this much trouble, get an MDS

This whole thing is like a bad morning "infomercial" which spends an hour telling us absolutely nothing. Infomercials never telling you what you need to know until the whole thing is over. Then you realize you just sat through an hour of them telling you how great this "system" is for only 129 easy payments of $99.95 when you know in your heart is worth $5 bucks.

Why does a person install "headers" on a car? Increase performance. But according to this thread the factory should know this already and have the car come with them already installed but there not. They make the engine the way it is, if you don't like it, change it. The ST carbs have problems, you want a simple fix? Change the carb and be done with it. I'm sure at one point in time. "Dub Jett" thought, "I can do better than this." So he did.

Fankly the best thing Super tiger could do to end all this is to make a deal with OS or Perry and as I said earlier, there is to much involved in setups to make much of this valid. By the time a person jacks around his engine to your specifications, he might have well bough and OS , Jett or similar and has way to much time invested for nothing.

< Message edited by Cyclic Hardover -- 3/5/2006 3:12:08 PM >


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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 3:05:30 PM   
Sturtz



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From: El Reno, OK, USA
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quote:

This whole thing is like a bad morning "infomercial" which spends an hour telling us absolutely nothing. Infomercials never telling you what you need to know until the whole thing is over. Then you realize you just sat through an hour of them telling you how great this "system" is for only 129 easy payments of $99.95 when you know in your heart is worth $5 bucks.


LOL,,, I'm thinking you may be right . I feel like I just produced and directed the infomercial myself.


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Kurt
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       Post #: 206

RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 3:08:09 PM   
Not24



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From: Gloucester, VA, USA
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Bax is not the one who said to use high nitro. He is conservative with his tuning comments. He says 10% nitro with a synthetic/ castor blend. That's where I got the Powermaster 10% from. He also says 18-8 to 18-10 props that turn between 7300 and 7800 rpm. He recommends 18% oil minimum, and clearly advises to stay away from the low oil ST fuels. All in all, he and ST are on the same page when it comes to tuning advice.



I just tried Googling to find the article that swears by 20% nitro, and I can't locate it. Whoever it is is rather insistant on his recommendations.


About the nitro content for this engine. After all the testing that I have done, I would say that the way you can tell which is best is to go by where your needle valves wind up being set. The low or zero nitro requires a closed needle, and the high nitro requires a very open needle. The closed needle will make for less lubrication in the cylinder, and the open one will allow more. I like my high needle to run best at about 1.5 turns open, which is right in the middle of the adjustment range. This I learned from doing the tests on the flow meter. Anything more than 2.5 turns open gives the same flow reading. If you need to be open that far to run right, you are using too much nitro. This also assumes that the carb is one that does work properly, and has no leaks. This high needle setting is also DIRECTLY related to the size of the venturi. In other words, the nitro content that works best has to be in harmony with the venturi size that works best. In the case of this particular engine/ carburetor, the stock carb has too large of a venturi. It doesn't draw fuel well, and needs help from muffler pressure. That in itself causes many problems, because now you have changing fuel pressure with rpm. There is no pressure at idle, so the low needle needs to be on the rich side. As soon as you open the throttle, there IS pressure, and now you are very rich. The high needle ONLY controls the mixture at full throttle, so it is not affected as much by the high muffler pressure. However, with the stock muffler, the pressure at full throttle is very high, so the needle needs to be made leaner than if it had less pressure. All this does is add up to a very non- linear carb. With the right size venturi, one that draws fuel well without help from the muffler, the tank pressure is more consistent and therefore the mixture stays more consistent. When I said I think the engine would like the 15% nitro better, that is because of the very slight hesitation when coming off of idle. Everybody knows that higher nitro idles and transitions better. I use the lowest nitro that works well. If it would run on 0, I would use it.

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 3:30:12 PM   
Cyclic Hardover



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From: New Mexico, USA
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I'm at 5000ft here! The low ends on all 5 of my Super Tigers are open about 4 turns just to draw fuel and start. This is just one of the hundred different scenarios which does no validate your numbers at all. it works for your area, your plane, you fuel and your plugs, your climate and the rest of it but does nothing for me.

You want to do some valid research here? then go find this. From what I know, these engines were originally from Italy, Where did all these specs and testing numbers, fuel and prop recommendations come from. Italy? Champaign Ill or what. You find that out and I'll show you how relevant this all is.

And this is what really gets my tail. I said it before. A guy is only getting 10,500rpms and is asking what rpms he should be getting on a "G90" with a certain prop. Lets say he is in "Idaho" at 2500ft. The guy answering him is in Corpus Christi at sea level telling him he should be getting 12,500rpms on a 13/8 prop. Who is right? Who is wrong? Were the original specs tested at sea level or not? Prove it?
Too many variables.

I just had to go back to the first thread on this. You started with an 18/8 and 18/6, both of which are recommended in the manual. The manual is stupid. I've never seen a manual that recommends a plane or weigh along with it. If you were doing any type of 3d prop hanging on an 18/8 or 6 with a 2300, I would say your begging for it and you have a heck of a load and the little engine then told the plane *&^%this! . Then the next few replies gave better prop selections.

What about the "right combination of nitro, plug and engine size. It takes a while to find that niche but whenyou do, its only for that set up, that area and plane. It may not work for the guy 4 states away. That thread I started on plugs told me quite a bit. It seems like the "F" plug is now classed with a "pump" as a cure all evil and thats pure bull!




< Message edited by Cyclic Hardover -- 3/5/2006 3:53:27 PM >


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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 3:38:21 PM   
Daryl Martel



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From: WinnipegManitoba, CANADA
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Not24 and everyone else that replied on this thread sharing their experiences... This has been one of the best/most informative threads I've yet seen about the 2300 problems and how to (try) to overcome them. I'm looking forward to playing with my engine more when the weather warms up. Heck, it's snowing today, nice and warm out - I could even try that Moki 1.35 carb today! Thanks everyone for sharing!

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 5:28:41 PM   
spyder0069


 

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speedster 1919:
There seems to be an incorrect thought here that has been mentioned a few times in this thread. The 2300 is NOT a "Big Tigre". The manual for the 2300 covers all smaller models and the 2300 but excludes the 2500+ engines. In fact here is a quote directly from the supertigre.com website:

"What types of fuels should I run in my giant scale SuperTigre engine (ex: 3250)?
(Important note: The G2300 (G20/23) is NOT considered a "Big ST" and must not be run on fuels lower than 18% oil.)"

This engine was designed to run just like a .46, .60, .91, 1.20 size. Not designed to lug a big prop at lower rpms like the 2500+ engines. And there is enough difference that the 2500+ engines can run fine on 12% oil (ST fuel) but the 2300 needs 18% (standard fuel). I know since mine is turning 9500 rpm static I wouldn't want to use 12% oil. That sounds like the death of a ring to me. So there are big differences and I think alot of misdirection has happened here because people are confusing the qualities / operation of the larger tigre's with this engine. Honestly, this engine performs/tunes just like my .46's. They like to rev.

Not24:
If I had a spare I would send you a 17x6apc so we could close this thread. ha ha ha

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 7:05:58 PM   
speedster 1919



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From: Martinsville, IN, USA
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If high nitro was so good why does ST have a special blend of 10%-10%. 2300 doesn't really fall into that blend.
quote:

Spyder, I never said the 2300 was a big tiger for that fuel but someone else did in this forum. I'll have to check, you say 12% oil in ST FUEL and I seam to recall some mft's are 10% oil. I think a big factor is the angle of the mid range spray bar. I have read the fuel nipple is to be pointed at the #1 mount hole. Pardon my ignorance but is that the front or rear hole on the mount lug? With the fuel nipple pointed at 3:00 position centers the spray bar and that doesn't point to a lug. I've tried the 1:00 and 5:00 oclock position and that is too lean on extended runs. I think the key is low needle needs to be turned in far enough so the high speed needle is out far enough to compensate. It's like if the 2 needles pointing at each other have to be so far apart. If you turn 1 in the other has to go out for spacing.

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Hey Buddy -That was the most spectacular crash I've ever seen , That rolling cart wheel with parts slinging out was cool...

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RE: My 2300 only likes one prop - 3/5/2006 7:32:00 PM   
speedster 1919



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From: Martinsville, IN, USA
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http://www.lymanslack.com/Articles&Archives/st.htm Here is a link that might help . Byrons SUPER TIGRE fuel is 10% total oil and 10% nitro
quote:

Only Byron combines computerized blending accuracy, unequaled raw material purity, pressurized nitrogen blanketing, high velocity closed loop raw material integration, the absolute best recipe and the meanest punch of the pack -- bar none!



These fuels feature a wide range of nitromethane and oil percentages and are available in your choice of synthetic/castor blends or straight synthetic lubrication. Generally, a 16% total oil content is more than adequate for optimum performance and minimal parts wear. For those who feel more comfortable with higher oil percentages, we manufacture our Traditional Blends with 20% total oil content and our Premium 18 Blends with a total oil content of 18%.



Several years ago, we set out to develop a full line of competitive and sport fuels specifically for car applications. As a direct result of arriving at superior blends that utilize the Byron Proprietary Lubricants and the higher quality nitromethane and methanol available, Byron RACE has become the leading fuel in many countries where modeling on land is more practical than in the air. Byron RACE proves to be superior in performance, engine life and cooler operation. RACE has been a favorite around local tracks for years.
Most of the distributors of other blends of R/C Car Fuels also carry their