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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/13/2009 3:03 AM   
billmod12


 

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Status: online 		King, I went that route once about 3 years ago with terrible results and it was very difficult to work and it was only a 40" span. It took forever to get it to lay down and stick. I still fly the model but I would hate to know I had to do a 100" wing. Go here and get you some you some good silk 55" wide. The polyester was a total nightmare. The work and the looks of the final product was certainly not worth the effort and it is heavy compared to silk. Here is a pic of my polyester effort. The picture makes it look decent but I will never do that again. I painted it to make it look better. I call it my "PolyEsquire". http://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/habotai.html

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/15/2009 5:39 PM   
Avaiojet


 

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Status: offline 		This airplane, in the photo, was not my first experience using silk and dope. Actually my seventh or eighth. I covered many control line models before building and covering this twin boom modified Aries.

Flite Streak Jr, Flight Streak, Smoothie, Thunderbird, and a bunch of others, including one of my own designs. All silk and dope and painted with a brush. We were kids.

The model, in the photo, I covered in early 1962. I know this because the photo date on the back says September 1962. Kodak did date the back of processed film back then. What is processed film?

Don Hartman is holding the model I built. We lost Don at a young age of only 18. He was a great CL pilot and plenty of fun. Boy did we make trouble!

I always applied silk wet but not soaked.

I still use silk and dope. Sure, I've used iron on plastic covering also, see the Waco photo. Covered 15 or better years ago, the stuff is falling apart.

I'll use silk and dope on this 1/5 scale Gee Bee Z. Then auto paint.

The results, in my opinion, will be much better than, what? You can call it different things, but you can't re-invent the wheel.

I have a 90" Gee Bee Z I'll also cover in silk and dope. Finish in auto paint.

This pattern airplane was covered with polyester resin and glass cloth. Finished with auto paint.

I guess I like silk n dope and auto paint.

Charles
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/19/2009 2:30 AM   
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Status: offline 		What great looking models, Charles! How did the twin boom Ares fly?

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/21/2009 12:37 PM   
Telemaster Sales UK



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Status: offline 		May I put in a word for a product called Solartex.

This is a British product made by the Solarfilm company and is basically a woven fabric with a heat-sensitive glue on the underside. You iron it on in the same way as a film product and then shrink it with extra heat to remove any wrinkles. You don't have to dope it, (or am I missing the point, is that all part of the fun!) and it's fuel proof. However, it does benefit from a coat or two of varnish or fuel proofer to stop staining from oil, exhaust etc.

They tell me it's a little heavier than the tissue and silk approach. It's available in a wide range of colours including translucent colours which look well on vintage models.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/21/2009 2:02 PM   
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ORIGINAL: king_arthur1953

I have read in a couple of places that 100% polyester dress lining purchased in local fabric stores works well, comes 60 inches wide and is a little over 2 bucks a yard. I am build an AMR 50Trainer with a 103" wingspan so I need wide fabric. I was curious if anyone in this thread has used anything like I mentioned above.


I bought some a couple of years ago, but made the mistake of buying the pre-shrunk dress liner. It's available in both pre-shrunken as well as the unshrunken version. The kind that has not been pre-shrunk works very well, but you won't get the kind that has already been heat set to ever tighten up. I still like the Koverall best of all, and use it on a regular basis. It's pretty much fool proof, once you get the hang of using it. Nitrate dope is still the best medium with which to adhere it to the framework of the model. If you put a couple of coats on the wood, and then sand it smooth, you can adhere the koverall to the frame by brushing a coat on the edge, and rubbing it into the weave with the tip of your finger. In just a few seconds, it's bonded extremely well, and you can proceed around the perimiter of the framework. Note; Don't try to shrink it until you have the entire panel covered, then using alternating sections, uniformly shrink the cloth. That will minimize warping of the panels. You will develop a feel for doing this, and the results are very rewarding. Don't use too much heat, since all you want to accomplish is to make the fabric smooth, and wrinkle free.

When trimming the cloth, don't be tempted to use an X-Acto blade. The #11 blades will lose their edge very quickly, and you will end up with some really ragged cuts. Use a new single edge razor blade for both cutting the fabric out on a piece of plate glass, and for cutting along an edge as well (like the leading edge of the wing). Again, it's a learned technique, and if you don't get what you are after the first time, you'll get better the next time.


Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/21/2009 4:11 PM   
king_arthur1953



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Status: offline 		Thanks Bill for you input. Yes the xato blades dull quickly. I am using the dress lining and it is working well. It was difficult at 1st just because of my lack of skill. Every piece I apply I learn and it is getting easier as I go. I have all flaps and ailerons covered and today I am starting on the wing. We will see how it goes. When I have to rip the covering odd and stat over it only cost me $2.79/yard. I do think the material I have is heavier than the Koveral.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/21/2009 5:16 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: king_arthur1953

Thanks Bill for you input. Yes the xato blades dull quickly. I am using the dress lining and it is working well. It was difficult at 1st just because of my lack of skill. Every piece I apply I learn and it is getting easier as I go. I have all flaps and ailerons covered and today I am starting on the wing. We will see how it goes. When I have to rip the covering odd and stat over it only cost me $2.79/yard. I do think the material I have is heavier than the Koveral.


Koverall is graded at 0.50 ounces per yard squared. Most of the dress liners are somewhee aroung 0.75 ounces per yard squared, so yes it's a little heavier. The thread count is a little lower as well, so there will be more voids to fill. The best way to fill the weave without adding much weight is to mix up some Knox Gelatin in water (mix it very heavy with less water, and brush it on. When the water evaporates, you can lightly sand the gelatin, and prime it. This product will also work on Koverall.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 3/21/2009 5:32 PM   
king_arthur1953



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Status: offline 		I would have never thought of that one. I have been using water base polyurethane. It doesn't smell bad and I can use it in the house unlike dope. Not to mention what it does to me!!!

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/7/2009 7:44 AM   
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Status: offline 		One needs to consider the qualities one needs in covering. For example, plastic covering I have seen doesn't like diesel fuel and goes saggy and wrinkled, although certain brands may be OK. I have found it near impossible to seal Poly-span against fuel soak. Even multi coats lead to hairline cracks which made their presence known when the fuel highlighted them. My solution has been to dope tissue over poly-span areas exposed to heavy fuel exhaust. In my Tomboy, I ended up with paper on the rudder, elevator, and tail end. Lightspan on the fin and stabilzer for toleration of diesel exhaust. Silk on the fuselage with a final Buterate coat, and the wing, which is clear of fuel, is done in Poly-span.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 4:44 PM   
Waldopepperaxel



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Status: offline 		Nice looking work folks,

I built the BUSA 1/4 Scale DR-1 this winter and am covering it with Silk, well its been about 30 years since I used it as I was swept into the monokote and solartex coverings for all these years just knowing I can cover a model in a night with great results.

I've been silking and doping for 4 weeks now and all I have done is the Rudder and Stabilizer is still being coated on the table, I just can't seem to get those last few wrinkles out, but I only have about 3 coats after all the tacking was done, what kills me is it looks beautiful right after I do all the edges its perfect, no wrinkles looks tight and smooth, then I add the dope to the open bays to shrink it nice and tight and it hasn't seemed to get there.

I'm using a few different mixtures trying to find the golden nugget, 50% Nitro dope 50% Thinner for the first 2 coats on the frame work then the same after the edges are all dry I've also tried a 40% dope 60% thinner mix and then the oposite, it all comes out the same.

so is it just more coats that I need, I'd really love to get the right combo so I can speed up the wrapping progress, like doing multiple pieces while the others are drying, I have 3 wings a sub wing and a fuse to do, I'd like to fly it this season at this rate I won't be done until November which is about the close of our season.

Do I want the Grain of the Silk running with the ribs or with the spars if I wewre wrapping a wing?? Any advice would be helpful or even a just keep on doing what I'm doing and it will all work out. I just need to know for speeding up the process is all.

I love the look of the silk and love to build, been doing it for about 38 years now, just been a long time since I wrapped this way.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 5:39 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey Waldo, I'm sure you will get a better answer than mine. I was the same as you at covering. Did some silk and dope as a kid with bad results and have stuck with plastic covering ever since (40+ yrs). Then last year I had a big Cub to finish and went with Sig Koverall and dope. Koverall is super easy to work with and get great results. Any little wrinkles or dimples iron right out with your moneykote iron. I now have a drum tight finish and couldn't be happier. Go get some Koverall and finish with that.

Mark

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 6:06 PM   
pd1


 

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Status: online 		Run the grain spanwise. The shrinkage is better spanwise.
If you do it chordwise the silk will pull down between the ribs and look funny.
Paul

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 7:39 PM   
Waldopepperaxel



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Thanks Tripledeucer, I hear ya there, but I already have plenty 'O' silk It was actually given to me with the plane when I bought it. and when I did it back in the days it came out great and tight as a drum, which is why I feel like I'm doing something wrong or just forgot how many applications of the doping it took to get it that way. I was thinking maybe 3 coats and I would start seeing the good results, especially after making sure it was nice and smooth and tight when I put it on wet, all I know is I missed the fumes. I'll see how coat 4 looks when I get home tonight.

Pd1 thank you also, thats what I thought and have been doing it that way on the stab (running the grain like the wind would flow over the surface) but I ran a piece each different way on the rudder and they both look the same, it probably needs more coats of dope. once I see it shrink down the way I think it should be then I can go ahead and have a wrapping fest

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 8:59 PM   
pd1


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Waldopepperaxel



Thanks Tripledeucer, I hear ya there, but I already have plenty 'O' silk It was actually given to me with the plane when I bought it. and when I did it back in the days it came out great and tight as a drum, which is why I feel like I'm doing something wrong or just forgot how many applications of the doping it took to get it that way. I was thinking maybe 3 coats and I would start seeing the good results, especially after making sure it was nice and smooth and tight when I put it on wet, all I know is I missed the fumes. I'll see how coat 4 looks when I get home tonight.

Pd1 thank you also, thats what I thought and have been doing it that way on the stab (running the grain like the wind would flow over the surface) but I ran a piece each different way on the rudder and they both look the same, it probably needs more coats of dope. once I see it shrink down the way I think it should be then I can go ahead and have a wrapping fest


I meant run the grain from tip to tip, not front to rear.
If the grain goes from front to rear, when the silk shrinks it will shrink more between the ribs than across the ribs.
The silk will look like it pulled down between the ribs instead of laying across the ribs.


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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 9:26 PM   
vasek



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Status: offline 		Dumb question:
do you first shrink it with the dope and then apply heat or is it the other way around?
quote:

ORIGINAL: TripleDeucer

Any little wrinkles or dimples iron right out with your moneykote iron.
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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/15/2009 10:31 PM   
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Status: offline 		Vasek, after I had my framework preped with several coats of nitrate dope and it was dry and sanded smooth, I layed the Koverall on and applied nitrate around the edges and stuck it all on. When that is dryed, I trimed around the perimeter and then carefully shrunk the dry fabric like you would shrink a plastic covering. Any little wrinkles around the edge ironed right out. When your doing the shrinking in the middle, I was careful not to overdo it since I was told it will distort the framework if you crank it up and get too aggressive. After you have several coats of dope on the entire thing, you can go back and run your iron some more to tighten and cure wrinkles. I never used any water or depended on any dope to shrink any thing. In my opinion, it is a very slick way to get a nice tight finish. I have worked with some of the iron on fabric coverings like permagloss coverite and solartex, but still prefer to paint my color on.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/16/2009 2:03 AM   
Waldopepperaxel



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Status: offline 		Pd1 I get it thanks,, phewww glad I didn't start with a wing that could have been trouble, and about how many coats is it taking to get it tight, if your real good at it, and I know it all varys depending on how you first put it on.

I always liked the way the finished product looked doing this kind of a wrap job but its amazing all the little things I have forgotten in 30 years, I don't recall ever mixing anything, it was all premixed and worked great. I think thats the thing that threw me the most

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/16/2009 12:28 PM   
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Status: online 		I try to get the silk tight before I stick it down.
I'm sure being wet will cause some shrinkage, and then doping will also cause shrinkage, but I want the silk taut before I do anything else.

If you use butyrate dope, it will continue shrinking for a long, long time.

But I like to start with a unwrinkled surface first, that said, I've goofed and I've let some wrinkles in on occasion and the dope took the wrinkles out.
Here's a shot of a wing ready for clear. The silk is only attached at this time.

It usually takes only 3 or 4 coats of thinned dope to seal the silk and another 3 to 6 to get the silk to shine after the dope had dried.
Once the silk shines, wet sand and alternate clear until you have the finish you desired.

The white on the wing is "blushed" dope. Dope turns white when there is too much moisture. it will dissapear when I re dope the wing.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/16/2009 7:14 PM   
Waldopepperaxel



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Status: offline 		Thanks,

well I went flying this morning and the guy who sold me the plane and gave me the silk was there, so  I was talking to him about it as he is a silk lover also, anyway he said " oh man, you know someone gave me that silk after they finished making a wedding dress and it is probably pre shrunk" 

DOH !!!! so I am aborting the dope and silk method and going to an iron on fabric as I just need this project done. as we are trying to sell our house and a dope fumed house isn't a good thing when trying to sell, once we move I'll continue with the dope thing, so it was great to hear that as I thought I was just doing everything wrong after all these years, so the silk that is preshrunk makes total sense why it just won't tighten up, I now have 5 coats on it and it looks exactly the same as it did after 3 coats....

Thanks for all your help. it really was appreciated and brought back to my memory things I hadn't remembered I will be able to use when I go back to silk on some authentic warbirds. 

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/22/2009 2:31 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 5487

I'm just now re-entering the hobby after a 25 year absence (college, kids, etc.) Of course, my mind reels at the immense changes (improvements) to the airplanes, engines and electronics over the years!!!

One thing that I've noticed is the almost total absence of fabric covering nowadays - everything seems to be shrink-wrapped in Monokote, although it's hard to knock a successful product. I do miss the old dope & fabric days though. Heck, if you mentioned "dope" in a hobby shop these days, you might end up on the TV show "Cops".

Anyway, is dope & fabric covering dead? None of the covering books that I've thumbed through recently make any mention of it.



  Its only been the last few years that I have started building scale models rather than sport models.  Thats when the patina of Monokote became unacceptable to me.  I needed  a real painted finish.  My 60 size birds didn't seem large enough to fiberglass.  So, I tried dope and fabric.  I loved it.  I wish I had tried it 30 years ago.  This is one of the easiest and best ways to finish a model.  Its quick and fun also.  Its durable too.
  I ordered my stuff directly from Sig.  They have most everything you need, thinner, dope, Koverall fabric, Stik-it. I really like it. 

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/22/2009 7:34 PM   
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I am getting ready to cover my 84" Quaker using Koveral (dacron) and Stits clear dope and color that I have left over. I have used dope and cotton, linen and dacron fabric for many years but this is a first for me on a model. Will see how it goes. There are still a lot of new airplanes being covered with fabric so it's not dead in the light plane industry. There are latex and urethane etc replacements for dope but serious problems like cracking are showing up. Larry


Hey Larry, if your still around here, I sure would like to see your Quaker. I am assuming you have it done by now. In the last 37 years I have built 25 Quakers 84" from scratch, so you might say that I like them. Unfortunatly they were all Moneykote covered. Next one will be dope.

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/23/2009 2:49 AM   
H5487


 

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Status: offline 		Mark,

I have a Penn Valley 84" Quaker kit that I'll be tackling this winter.   I am a builder so I already know my way around a kit.  I think silk and dope would be most appropriate for this vintage design and I also prefer a slow turning four cycle engine over a screaming two stroke.  I'm currently leaning towards a current production Saito 56 because open-rockered Saito 60s are rarer than hen's teeth. 

Since you've built a bunch of Quakers, I'd like to hear your thoughts, suggestions, and other words of wisdom.

Harvey
(This thread's OP.)

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/23/2009 4:18 AM   
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Harvey,  first off, I don't want to make any claims to being an expert, but I do have my opinions. My reason for liking and building so many Quakers is to have an all around sport plane that will fly on wheels, water, and ski's equally well. I basicly use the plan to layup the frame work and then I beef up a bunch of stuff as I am not flying in any oldtimer competitions that require you to follow rules. I use the old Model Builder Magazine plan #175 OT. This is still available from Bill Northrup plans service. I have never had a kit. I fly kind of aggressivly with rudder rolls, lots of t and g's, lots of full throttle low passes with pull ups to altitude and some inverted flight.  Now, to make my planes sturdy enough for my flying style, I rearrange the main spars in the D config so I can shear web the wing all the way out. This also gives me a good strong center section as I join halves with 1/8" ply on front and back with the same on the rear spar, leading and trailing edges.  I also move the firewall back a bit to accomodate a 70 4 stroker. I add gussets all around the main cabin area. I also streghthen the tail by adding 1/4 square stock in between all the cap strips to make the tail solid. My plan is a free flight plan and dosen't show a hinge line, so I put that at the end of the fuselage like a cub has. I also shorten the landing gear and move it back to where a cub is set. This all makes for a nice flying sport plane. Most old timer purists wouldn't want me to even call it a "Quaker" anymore. None of those types around where I fly. If you build your kit according to their plan, you will have a lighter duty airplane that will float around nice and slow. There is nothing wrong with that, so don't get too aggressive with it. I like the lines of the old time free flights. They had tons of character, just like old cars.

I just finished #25 and will have it out this weekend and get some pics to post.

Thanks, Mark



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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/24/2009 5:23 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks, Mark.  I'm looking forward to seeing the pictures!

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RE: Is dope & fabric covering dead? - 5/25/2009 5:44 PM   
TripleDeucer



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< Message edited by TripleDeucer -- 5/25/2009 5:48 PM >

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Mark
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(in reply to billmod12)
       Post #: 125

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