Battery longevity  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> Electric Aircraft Universe >> Electric Pattern Aircraft >> Battery longevity
Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Battery longevity - 2/4/2006 4:41:42 AM   
ExFokkerFlyer



Posts: 427
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: Fresno, CA,
Status: offline
Just curious as to what kind of longevity you guys are seeing with your batteries, and what brands and configs they are.

As of today I have 126 cycles on one set, and 118 on the other. Running TP 5s3p 6000 in 10s config with an AXI, and a Jeti ESC.

_____________________________

Any pilot can describe the mechanics of flying. What it can do for the spirit of man is beyond description.- Barry Goldwater
       Post #: 1

RE: Battery longevity - 2/6/2006 7:43:26 PM   
depo



Posts: 24
Joined: 1/3/2005
From: Vicenza, ITALY
Status: offline
I'm also really interested about this topic. I'm planing to convert my pattern planes (#1 Fantasy and #1 Eclipse CA Model) from glow to EP, but i need same reliable information about the longevity of a 10s LiPo pack (Thunder Power, Kokam, E-Flight ... )

I'm planning to use an Axi 5330/F3A, TP 10s3p 6000 (Fantasy) and a Plettenberg 30/10 TP 10s4p 5300 (Eclipse), both with Jeti O-90.

Best regards,

depo

(in reply to ExFokkerFlyer)
       Post #: 2

RE: Battery longevity - 2/6/2006 11:58:40 PM   
Adamg-RCU



Posts: 722
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Saskatoon, SK, CANADA
Status: offline
You don't need a 90A ESC for a pattern plane.

(in reply to depo)
       Post #: 3

RE: Battery longevity - 2/7/2006 8:23:54 AM   
depo



Posts: 24
Joined: 1/3/2005
From: Vicenza, ITALY
Status: offline
Yes Adamg-RCU,

you are true, but I just think it's safer rather than a Jeti 77 or than an Hacker Master 77 (or any similar 70 Amps ESC)...

(in reply to Adamg-RCU)
       Post #: 4

RE: Battery longevity - 2/8/2006 11:11:48 AM   
Kolsso12



Posts: 54
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Gothenburg, SWEDEN
Status: offline
Do not forget that LiPo batteries are ageing. OK for competition the first year and is OK for practice the second. Because of this reason I try to reduce number of variants I have. Remember that one battery for each plane will give you long waiting time between each flight. I try to have 3 batteries and 2 chargers, 2 batteries and 2 chargers are OK.

I am also building a CA Model Eclipse. I will also have a Plettenberg XTRA 30-10 and will probably tray Xcell 4300 mAh (it has 4400 mAh). It is a single cell which I like and it is very cheap. If I need more mAh I will by a TP 5300 for competition. I do not manage TP 6000 and XTRA 30-10, it will be too heavy.

Link to test of Xcell: http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/xcell.htm

(in reply to depo)
       Post #: 5

RE: Battery longevity - 2/8/2006 12:21:52 PM   
depo



Posts: 24
Joined: 1/3/2005
From: Vicenza, ITALY
Status: offline
Thanks Kolsso12,

you gave me a great tip about the XCell ( i didn't know them). This battery packs looks goog, light, powerfull and cheep enough. I think there will be less problem to balance a 10s1p pack than a 10s4p pack, maybe they can hold an higher number of cycles: "less cells, less failures"

I wish to excange with you our EP-Eclipse's experience as soon as possible.

best regards

< Message edited by depo -- 2/8/2006 12:28:25 PM >

(in reply to Kolsso12)
       Post #: 6

RE: Battery longevity - 2/9/2006 1:43:38 AM   
can773



Posts: 1652
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: offline
Depo

So far (about 75 ish cycles) my 10s4p's are in perfect balance. They typically stay about 0.002-0.007V maximum difference in voltage between the cells. I do use balancers but not every charge and when I dont use them the balance is just as good as when I do use them.

Certainly less cells in parallel is better, but so far the TP 5300's seem to be very good at keeping balanced. I would not let their large xP count stop you from using them!


_____________________________

Chad Northeast

(in reply to depo)
       Post #: 7

RE: Battery longevity - 2/9/2006 10:14:11 AM   
depo



Posts: 24
Joined: 1/3/2005
From: Vicenza, ITALY
Status: offline
Thanks Chad, you are always impeccable in you explanation. I won't forghet your pieces of advice about the TP5300. A frind of mine from Denmark thinks the same like you....

< Message edited by depo -- 2/9/2006 10:51:46 AM >

(in reply to can773)
       Post #: 8

RE: Battery longevity - 2/9/2006 3:28:58 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/24/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline
We have been looking at the effects of temperature and current stress on Lithium packs for over a year now and have greatly increased the longevity of LiPo packs in F3A pattern flying to over 400 cycles.

Please read my article on Lithium Power Solutions for a brief top-level description of the latest technology.


_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

(in reply to depo)
       Post #: 9

RE: Battery longevity - 2/9/2006 4:17:44 PM   
can773



Posts: 1652
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greg Covey

We have been looking at the effects of temperature and current stress on Lithium packs for over a year now and have greatly increased the longevity of LiPo packs in F3A pattern flying to over 400 cycles.

Please read my article on Lithium Power Solutions for a brief top-level description of the latest technology.



Greg

Your link outlines the Kokam 3200 cell....a fellow in pattern land (I wont use his name) ran these cells in F3A with the discharge protection modules and cycle life was around 30 if I remember right....a far cry from 400.

There was much discussion about this on the pattern list some months back, the conclusion was that 10s 3200 Kokam cells were not suitable (I am sure a 2p version would be).


_____________________________

Chad Northeast

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 10

RE: Battery longevity - 2/10/2006 2:05:59 AM   
ExFokkerFlyer



Posts: 427
Joined: 5/3/2002
From: Fresno, CA,
Status: offline
I guess 'longevity' is the wrong term... how many cycles are we seeing out there. Manufacturers boast the potential of hundreds of cycles, has anybody done it though?

_____________________________

Any pilot can describe the mechanics of flying. What it can do for the spirit of man is beyond description.- Barry Goldwater

(in reply to can773)
       Post #: 11

RE: Battery longevity - 2/10/2006 1:37:09 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4375
Joined: 5/24/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline
Chad,

You are correct. We gained valuable information from several pattern flyers during the beta development phase of Skyvolt last Fall and have not deployed new product to them as we await new packs from Kokam using 4800mAh cells that can deliver 100amps of current. The wait should only be a few weeks now. A 2p configuration of 3200 cells would work but is too heavy and costly for most users.

What we learned from our pattern test flyers is that the real world usage of Lithium packs cannot easily be duplicated in the lab. For example, just before production release of the BalancePro HD (formerly Skyvolt) line, we removed the air gap between the cells as it drastically reduced the cycle life due to warping from the spacers. The real world handling of these packs revealed the effect of capacity loss from our measurements. The difference in internal cell temperature was only 10 degrees F so it wasn't as effective as we originally hoped for. We had a chuckle as the PolyQuest packs soon came out with air gaps shortly afterwords as we had been advertising our packs this way as a feature.

We have improved the Discharge Protection Module (DPM) software and the 6s charger software (both products are re-programmable) in areas that affect both cycle life of the packs, usage, and speed of charging. A 20 minute full charge is now seen instead of only 90%. We lowered the full charge voltage by 0.05v and disable the low voltage cutoff for the first 30 seconds of flight.

The 3200mAh cell just didn't cut it in the F3A world. Most top pilots including QuiQue use a 5AH capacity. Unlike the ThunderPower 5AH packs, the new Kokam 4.8AH packs using the BalancePro HD charger and DPM will stand up to the current demand. What we found is that top sponsored pilots didn't care about pack longevity as they got their equipment for free. This was not the case for the majority competition pattern flyer and they often could not afford the expense of replacing Lithium packs several times a season.

The two areas of pack longevity that the user must still control are temperature and discharge current. For temperature, we provide an indicator on the pack that helps you determine if your air flow is sufficient. Since Kokam cells produce less heat during discharge, this helps the performance. The 3200 cells could only deliver 64amps which was just shy of the pattern planes power demands. The new 4800 cells are the same width but longer and thicker and they can deliver 100amps and stay under the 140 degree F threshold of damage. The new Cell Rating Specs show the true operating current for maximum longevity so the advanced user can seperate reality from advertising hype...at least on packs from FMA.

I'll be off at the GP E-Fest until Tuesday and check back then...


_____________________________

Visit my Web Hangar at www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm

(in reply to ExFokkerFlyer)
       Post #: 12

RE: Battery longevity - 2/10/2006 3:32:15 PM   
Kolsso12



Posts: 54
Joined: 9/9/2003
From: Gothenburg, SWEDEN
Status: offline
In Europe we are already able to by Kokam 4800.

Test on the new cell: http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/kokam-parade.htm


The Xcell 4300 mAh get 15 degrees hotter and has 200 to 300 mAh less capacity compare to Kokam 4800. Xcell 4300 hold high current under longer time and is 40 % cheaper.

Test on Xcell 4300: http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/xcell.htm

(in reply to Greg Covey)
       Post #: 13

RE: Battery longevity - 2/10/2006 8:25:07 PM   
Adamg-RCU



Posts: 722
Joined: 4/22/2003
From: Saskatoon, SK, CANADA
Status: offline
I've been informally keeping score, and I haven't heard a single report of a Thunder Power Pro Lite 5s4p5300 or 5s3p6000 failure when used in a pattern application. Previous generations? Absolutely, lots. Pro Lites? Not a one.

To be accurate, there is no published evidence that a comparable Kokam cell produces less heat than the Thunder Power cell. The only data available shows the obvious: add mass to a heat-producing body and the temperature won't climb as fast.

-Adam

(in reply to Kolsso12)
       Post #: 14

RE: Battery longevity - 2/10/2006 10:39:54 PM   
Fred Marks


 

Posts: 180
Joined: 8/5/2003
From: Frederick, MD, USA
Status: offline

To the contrary: Lots of evidence in the following threads. All these come from independent testers and modelers, not from Kokam or TP. The attached is a plot of the temperature data from the battery test data taken by a massive set of modelers who did tests with the CBA. The KOK 3200has performance superior to any RC cell as seen in the data from Wattflyer. The internal resistance is so much lower that RC Tester plots show the KOK 3200 delivering 64 amps continuously with temperature just slightly exceeding 140 deg F.

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=418260&highlight=TESTER

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=336

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473158

http://www.