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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 2/27/2006 3:32:28 AM   
wdchuck


 

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wow. I guess i should have held out a little while longer before i bought the CBAII. Really neat device though. Nicely engineered.

Chuck

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 2/27/2006 3:55:51 AM   
JNorton



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Couldn't sleep keep thinking of this exchange of ideas.

My experience with NiCd and NiMh cells comes from using them as rechargeable packs for experimentation for the last 30 years (not high current), from Sanyo's Web pages and of course from sites like Red's Battery clinic. So the information I convey will be slanted toward what manufactures use and recommend. I got into this as a way of paying back my club members for the help they've given me. I also got into answering questions on this forum because of the amount of misinformation that seems to float out there.

I find batteries and chargers tend to have a lot of snake oil. Same as in my Industry with peddler's of welding equipment. Every salesman has special gas or a high tech waveform power supply to sell you. We weld mild steel 1/4" thick or thicker for truck and trailer suspensions. A straight DC power supply with 90/10 gas that has been used for the last 50 years gives as good a weld as anything out there, but you'd never believe listening to the salesman. To actually find out a metallurgist cuts the weld and does an acid etch and a compression and tensile strength test. A benchmark test.

The only way to really find out is to use a benchmark. An on board data recorder with a set course. A computerized load tester etc. I will really be interested to see what you come up with. As an example on RCGroups there is a Battery Vault where they have been testing different LiPo battteries at different load levels. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342568

Now it's really time for my bed. I get up at 4:30 AM

John

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 2/28/2006 1:38:39 AM   
Alfalfameister


 

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Since I can't test with an onboard data recorder, etc... I'll have to use the discharging feature of my MuchMore CellMaster.

This is what I plan to do:

PHASE 1: The Slow Charge Method

1. Slow Charge the battery pack (6 cell side-by-side GP3300) at C/10 (in my case, C/13... close enough -- 250 mah wall wart) for 16-20 hours;
2. Discharge to 6.6v (or 1.1v per batt average) at 10 amps using the MuchMore CellMaster.
3. Take readings (Discharged mah, time, internal resistance, temperature -- all as measured by the MuchMore CellMaster)
4. Let Battery rest several hours, then charge it again using the wall wart for about 10 hours (not 14-20 hours anymore, as the battery was not drained anyway).

Reason for using a wall wart is because that's what people would use when slow charging anyway (yes, they could use a higher end peak-detecting one, but for C/13 charging, the wall wart can't hurt, can it?).

Battery will NOT be discharged further after it has reached the 6.6v cut off (I'm not using the 5.4 because, I _think_ that at 6.6, the battery won't really be that competitive anymore for racing, and most racers would park their car when it slows down like that). The remaining charge will stay there until the next charging which will be several hours after.

I will do this for about 5 times. (i.e., over 5 days)

PHASE 2: Fast Charge

1. Discharge battery using a Spintec Battery Manager (supposedly brings it down to 5.4)
2. Tray with Tekin Battery Doctor until lights are out. Keep it trayed until actual charging time.
3. Charge using MuchMore Cell Master using step charging method: 2000mah @ 7 amps, then another 500 @ 3.5 amps, then the rest (until it peaks) @ 7 amps again.
4. Discharge at 10 amps (as above -- cutoff 6.6v) and take readings. So, the discharging method will be EXACTLY as in Phase 1.
5. Discharge battery using Spintec Battery Manager, then tray it again after.
6. This means, because it is being fast charged, I can do one cycle in the morning, then in the afternoon, take it out of the tray and charge and discharge again, then "spintec and tray" it again until the next day.

I will do this about 5 times as well. (Since it is fast-charged, I could do two a day -- one early in the morning, and one before bed, and in both cases, there would have been enough time for the battery to rest)

WHAT'S THE USE IN ALL OF THIS? Well... nothing... I guess because I'm just a geek.

P.S. A used battery (but still quite good!) will be used for this experiment. No new batteries will be harmed during the filming of this movie.

Known problem: Phase 2 might show better numbers because the battery was already conditioned/cycled by Phase 1. A solution to this is to have another battery where you do Phase 2 before Phase 1. But I neither have the time nor the inclination (nor the battery) to do so (hey, I'm a geek, but not _that_ much of a geek!).

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 2/28/2006 10:38:33 AM   
JNorton



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Should be interesting.

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/2/2006 3:24:39 PM   
Alfalfameister


 

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quote:

Known problem: Phase 2 might show better numbers because the battery was already conditioned/cycled by Phase 1. A solution to this is to have another battery where you do Phase 2 before Phase 1. But I neither have the time nor the inclination (nor the battery) to do so (hey, I'm a geek, but not _that_ much of a geek!).


Well, 3 cycles have been done (although the very first cycle showed considerably inferior numbers, so I will probably discard that -- I'll still post it here but with that caveat). Tomorrow morning, I'll do the fourth cycle. Then in the afternoon, I will do the first cycle of fast-mode (Phase 2). Then I will not do anything for two days, as I'm off to the beach with my family for the weekend (Told you I wasn't that much of a geek!).

Then when I get back, I will do three more Phase 2 cycles, then switch back to another Phase 1, and finish of with a last Phase 2 (hmmm... I am a geek after all...)

To be continued...

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 12:13:10 AM   
JNorton



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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 12:56:54 AM   
Alfalfameister


 

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Right... Phase one almost done...


Volt IR Temp Mah Time

7.149 70 32.5 1324 6:31
7.335 68 31.1 1723 8:28
7.348 68 30.6 1720 8:27
7.347 66 30.9 1672 8:13

*Note my caveat about the first discharge... I would "throw those figures away" and just use the last three, but included it here anyway just for the sake of completeness.

Between each cycle, no further discharging was done. After it hit 6.6v, I just took the readings, disconnected the battery, and about 12 hours later, started charging again (about 11 hours on a wall wart).

That would be... AVERAGE voltage, Internal Resistance, Temperature, maH, and Time from fully charged to 6.6v cutoff at 10 amp discharging rate on a MuchMore CellMaster. Readings may or may not be true-to-life, but at least the way the battery is discharged is CONSISTENT.

Now, the 10 amp draw in no way simulates the way a car is driven, but I don't know a way yet how to simulate that.

The battery in question is now drained to 5.4v (using Spintec's Battery Manager, which pulsed discharged at 35amps -- but pulsing), and is currently in/on a tray (Tekin Battery Doctor) where it will sit for about 10 hours (until I get back from work). Thereafter, it will be fast charged at my "Phase 2 mode" later.

Am taking bets... now where's the battery-showdown bookie?

EDIT: Additional note: Battery was disconnected from wall-wart and IMMEDIATELY put on the discharger. I will also do that in the Phase 2.

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 1:12:45 AM   
JNorton



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Alfalfameister
3300 /250 = 13.2 * 1.4 = 18 hours for a full charge at C13 which corresponds fairly well to your estimate of 16 to 20 hours.

6 cells fully charged should be about (6*1.35) or 8.1 volts so I would have to conclude that the 250 mA wall wart charger isn't charging at 250 ma or it's not smooth DC maybe has a diode blown. Something definitely is wrong with the C/10 charge!!! Your battery pack is not fully charged so the test isn't going to prove anything. EDIT-> on the other hand if the fast charging method proves out ???

John

< Message edited by JNorton -- 3/3/2006 1:25:51 AM >


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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 1:14:15 AM   
JNorton



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What's the voltages across the individual cells. Perhaps the pack has a weak cell????

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 1:49:08 AM   
JNorton



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I looked at a graph of the 3300 mAh SC size cell if the voltage starts at 1.22 volts with a 10 amp draw you've already used 750 mA of capacity! Or to put it another way 22% of the charge is missing.

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 6:24:13 AM   
Alfalfameister


 

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First off, these are second hand cells (bought from somebody).

Secondly, the 3300 mah rating is when a battery is discharged to .9v/cell, correct? I'm discharging to only 1.1v/cell, so definitely it won't show the 3300. (In any case, if I recall correctly, these batteries, being 2nd hand, were only charging to 3100 or so).

Thirdly, the voltage shown is the AVERAGE voltage (it does start out at about 8 volts).

Lastly, while I don't know if there's anything with the wall-wart, let's see how the Phase 2 works out. You never know -- results might come out the same! (or, gasp! worse!).

Finally, believe it or not (@John), I'm rooting for you (and Red) regarding the slow-charge!!! Heheh!

If the difference is miniscule (phase 1 vs phase 2), I will leave it to the Pros (Atsushi Hara, Rheinhard, Cyrul, Hirosaka, et al) to take advantage of said differences (in that level of racing, those differences mean a lot to THEM -- to me, I gotta practice my driving more). Besides, they can abuse the pack (heck, even charge at 10 amps or more) since after the race weekend, they'll probably throw them away.

I have ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT, however, that slow-charging will be CONSIDERABLY BETTER for the longevity of the packs. That's why, since I'm not a competitive racer, I will still use the slow-charge method if I have the time.

EDIT: If there is something wrong with the wall wart, then I will charge at the C/10 rate next time with the MuchMore charger... problem is, the darned thing (with it's fans) is not what I'd call quiet!

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 9:13:21 AM   
Alfalfameister


 

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quote:

I would have to conclude that the 250 mA wall wart charger isn't charging at 250 ma or it's not smooth DC maybe has a diode blown


I hate it when something goes wrong... After one cycle of Phase 2, I think you're right, John: there could be something wrong with my wall wart (dumba$$ cheap stuff...).

Oh, well, ever the optimist with a positive attitude, all this does is set me back a few more days. The original Phase 1 (above) is PROBABLY JUNK, because the wall wart is PROBABLY JUNK. So, I will junk those results, and do Phase 1 AFTER Phase 2 (since I already started with Phase 2). The only change is that now I will use the MuchMore for the slow charge, instead of the wall-wart.

I will charge at C/11 (300 mah) for about 15 hours for the initial re-running of Phase 1, then (since I won't be discharging more than the 6.6v cutoff, i.e., leave the remaining charge in the battery), succeeding cycles will be at C/11 for about 10-12 hours.

Anyway, here's the first run of the fast charge:

Avg Volt 7.476
IR 052
Temp 35 (remember that, since it was fast charged then IMMEDIATELY discharged, it started at a higher temp: temp after charging was 42 centigrade. The reason it went DOWN is that the battery was placed near a fan -- but this was also done in the previous cycles for consistency).
mah 2725
Time 13.22

Notice the big difference in MAH (and ergo, Time to hit 6.6v from fully charged state), which makes me believe John that there's something wrong with the wall wart. No biggie. Like I said, just sets me back a few days. Next Phase (redoing of Phase 1), the MuchMore will be used to slow charge.

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/3/2006 10:34:13 AM   
JNorton



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Ain't this fun. Makes you want to pull your hair out. It would still be a good idead with both phases to measure the voltage level of each individual cell after charging before discharging.

quote:

If the difference is miniscule (phase 1 vs phase 2), I will leave it to the Pros (Atsushi Hara, Rheinhard, Cyrul, Hirosaka, et al) to take advantage of said differences (in that level of racing, those differences mean a lot to THEM -- to me, I gotta practice my driving more). Besides, they can abuse the pack (heck, even charge at 10 amps or more) since after the race weekend, they'll probably throw them away.
This is what I'm expecting to see.

I got hit with a tax bill I wasn't expecting so finances are just a little tight right now. I really want to pick up the CBA discharge unit. My wife says no, I have enough toys.
John

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RE: Quick newb question: How to discharge packs? - 3/5/2006 12:54:21 PM   
Alfalfameister


 

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quote:

Makes you want to pull your hair out.


Er... not much to pull out because of my genes!

quote:

It would still be a good idead with both phases to measure the voltage level of each individual cell after charging before discharging.


I did that on cycle 3 and 4 of this Phase 2. They were all about 1.45 to 1.47. They are a bit high (versus the 1.35 you mentioned) because they were being measured about 20 seconds immediately after charging. They were still going down a bit (I think that's why the car guys want to peak their