RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown...  
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/10/2006 8:27:42 PM   
TJMeek


 

Posts: 2
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: ROSWELL, NM, USA
Status: offline 		your missing the point, I stated the facts, andour barrier was above anything required and visable for 2/3rds of a mile, just trying to clear our name in the incident

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 51

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/10/2006 8:57:53 PM   
804


 

Posts: 252
Joined: 9/17/2005
From: sheridan, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I Think a lot of you are confusing "what is" with "what should be". Let me share an analogy. My other hobby is motocross. I worked and raced at a local track. Shortly before the closing of the track, a rider sued the facility and 6 other entities for injuries he received in practice before the race, on raceday. Before he ever started his bike, the rider had signed 5 waivers stating he understood the dangers of racing, and would not hold anyone else responsible in case of his injuries. And probably, had the case gone to court, it would have been thrown out. But a settlement was reached. The point is that anyone can sue for anything, and no matter how legally "protected"you think you are, you or your club may be held liable, or you may have to pay a lot of lawyer fees, or pay for a settlement. Bottom line, can you afford it? Why not take DB's advice and try to mitigate any potential problems, saving the club, landowner, and potential tresspassers a lot of grief?

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 52

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/11/2006 4:11:22 AM   
Liberator


 

Posts: 805
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		OMFG!!!!! dude jump back to planet Earth.
As far as spikes on my apple tree..those are some pretty dang fine apples. I gots ta protect em...

I would be all over on your side of the fence IF the club had strung a single string of razor ribbon, or thin wire with the intent of trying to hurt someone. Based though on the facts, thats not what happened. There was no malicious intent here. There was no attempt at trying to camoflage (sp) the barrier. Should we all make sure that the barriers are well marked,? Hell yes we should, but here's a for instance.

It's let's say 3:45 in the afternoon on a brightly lit day and the barriers are clearly marked all the way from the road to the barriers and just to make it interesting, let's say the individual that ended up striking the barrier knew that it was there.

Sound far fetched? shouldn't, cause thats exactly what happened. I feel horrible that anyone got hurt, but it looks like it came back to the person that inadvertantly did themselves in.

It is a very sad thing, I hope it does not happen again.

_____________________________

One man's crash is another man's carefully planned landing maneuver.

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 53

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/11/2006 10:55:46 AM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline 		You know I'm not really talking about that single event because for one thing there are 2 others Dave is talking about. Obviously he's trying to get a GENERAL point across regarding these chains, poles and other obviously dangerous object which cross areas which could be dangerous.

quote:

I would be all over on your side of the fence IF the club had strung a single string of razor ribbon, or thin wire with the intent of trying to hurt someone.
That is the whole point. If you don't have these chains clearly marked, and if you you know people can get hurt if you don't mark them, THEN YOU HAVE INTENT. This is exactly what Dave is trying to say. And if you guys think that you won't be sued if somone gets hurt by an unmarked chain on your property, in any other state then Texas???, then you are dead wrong. Also a thin wire or razor ribbon is what these poles turn into at high speeds.

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Here At The Wall

(in reply to Liberator)
       Post #: 54

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/11/2006 3:28:17 PM   
Liberator


 

Posts: 805
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		Actually no you do not have intent. It was not a wire that was across as a barrier, in most cases it's a pole or a chain. Keep in mind in the case I stated it was a well marked barrier with multiple signs, and this poor guy still ran into it. I get what your saying, save a life...don't get sued...blah blah blah...

Years ago when I still hunted I had permission to hunt from a farmers field. In order to get to the river where I needed to go I needed to go into the adjacent field which I did not have permission to do. It was sort of an understood thing. That farmer raised..can you guess? Texas Longhorns. I am not sure if you have ever seen one close up, but it's pretty impressive. Even more impressive is walking up on one at 4 am with a dense ground fog covering the area.
Slightly more impressive than that is coming around a tall piece of sage, at 4 am , heavy fog and finding yourself 3 feet from one and he is staring you down hooves kicking the ground.
Now I am not sure if you know this, but the Texas Longhorn can grow his horns 1.2 miles per side....at least thats what it looks like from 3 feet, head lowered and him showing them off obviously proud of them. All I can say is that 12 gauge your carrying turns into a peashooter so fast you need viagra to feel better about things.

My point is that if said Mr. Longhorn had decided to use me as a scratching post...its my fault. Technically I was trespassing because I did not have the little paper that said I could be there. THe farmer knew I was because he had given me a verbal ok, but was out of papers.
He had deniablility because no form was issued. Same as our guy that hit the barrier and any guy that hits barriers on PRIVATE PROPERTY. They have no right to be there.

My point is that EVEN under the best of possible cirumstances, people still do stupid things. Look at the Roswell Case. All the right things were done and someone still got hurt. Maybe he had a spaceship fly over that distracted him from ALL THE SIGNS AND WARNINGS.

Again, unless it was missed. Mark your chains, and poles. It's a good thing to do. Feel better?



_____________________________

One man's crash is another man's carefully planned landing maneuver.

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 55

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/11/2006 11:50:22 PM   
aviti


 

Posts: 681
Joined: 12/3/2002
From: Ballwin, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Your opinions don't matter. The opinion of the court does. If you fail to mark a chain on your property, you are still responsible even if the person is trespassing. The jury will decide based on the law and the facts of the case. Sure I am protective of my property but I'm pretty sure if I shoot someone snooping around my yard that I'll go to jail and also could be sued. It's like the guy who backs into someone elses car. He says it isn't his fault because the car was parked illegally and shouldn't have been there. The illegally parked car deserves a parking ticket, not a smashed up car. The fact that a trespasser is doing something illegal and even stupid doesn't relieve the landowner of liability for an unmarked hazard.

(in reply to Liberator)
       Post #: 56

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 1:48:34 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		First you say "Your opinions don't matter. The opinion of the court does.", which probably is correct, assuming the jury is part of the court, but then you go on to give your opinion.

Are you the court? Or is it just other posters' opinions that don't count?


quote:

ORIGINAL: aviti

Your opinions don't matter. The opinion of the court does. If you fail to mark a chain on your property, you are still responsible even if the person is trespassing. The jury will decide based on the law and the facts of the case. Sure I am protective of my property but I'm pretty sure if I shoot someone snooping around my yard that I'll go to jail and also could be sued. It's like the guy who backs into someone elses car. He says it isn't his fault because the car was parked illegally and shouldn't have been there. The illegally parked car deserves a parking ticket, not a smashed up car. The fact that a trespasser is doing something illegal and even stupid doesn't relieve the landowner of liability for an unmarked hazard.



< Message edited by J_R -- 3/12/2006 1:53:14 AM >

(in reply to aviti)
       Post #: 57

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:15:25 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline 		JR, what's gotten into you? Second time, same thread, you are attacking someone for no reason at all.
The guy stated his opinion, and it's a very reasonable opinion, whydoyahatfa go bite his head off like that?
What's going on?

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 58

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:16:42 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Didn't really mean to bite his head off, but... it is an oxymoron... isn't it?

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
       Post #: 59

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:19:23 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		I am edgy about discussing a death when we know so few facts. Seems like a new thread might be a better idea if everyone wants to play lawyer. Heck, Marc even started an off-topic forum. Might be even better there. Maybe I am just being overly sensitive of the family.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 60

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:20:38 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: J_R

Didn't really mean to bite his head off, but... it is an oxymoron... isn't it?

It was, yes, but you understood his point.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 61

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:35:03 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		In the discussion I pointed to in the second link, in the second post in this tread, I was the thread starter. When the discussion started to go sideways, I requested that the moderator close the thread, and it was done.

Easytiger, you started this thread.

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
       Post #: 62

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:45:22 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

Posts: 7676
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: nyc, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I started it, I have heard some interesting things here about the subject at hand, but I have also heard some very old hat type personal disputes like there always are on this forum, a bunch of political "if it were not for hippie liberals like Hillary this would be a great country!" crap, "let's kill all the lawyers", all this stuff that is getting waaay out there. Oh, well.
There is some interesting stuff, too.

(in reply to J_R)
       Post #: 63

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:54:44 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		Easytiger

I don't often confront you. Let me make my feelings clear, then I am out of this thread.

It is my opinion that you should close the thread and disassociate Dave Brown, and this kid from the comments being made here.

Nothing is wrong with the debate or the conjecture... as long as it is not in the context of this death.

JR

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
       Post #: 64

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 2:59:43 AM   
Liberator


 

Posts: 805
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		"The fact that a trespasser is doing something illegal and even stupid doesn't relieve the landowner of liability for an unmarked hazard."
Oh really? Good luck defending that one.

So someone waltzes into your house to steal from you and kill you and your family. Just before he pulls the trigger he moves around to get a better angle and slips and falls into your pool. Luckily, said bad guy can't swim and you watch as he pleads with to help him out of the pool. You being the obviously kind person that you are now have a decision to make. Save him or let him die? Clocks ticking......

If it's me, I let him go meet Davey Jones..and no not the Monkee.

You though have to save him. So good luck with that. I am sure that he will thank you and not try and kill you this time around.




_____________________________

One man's crash is another man's carefully planned landing maneuver.

(in reply to aviti)
       Post #: 65

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 3:12:02 AM   
piper_chuck



Posts: 7896
Joined: 6/13/2004
From: Pittsboro, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Liberator, it's useless arguing with them. They will continue to insist that no matter how many laws a person breaks, such as trespassing on your property, and no matter how stupid their actions are, if they injur themself on your property, it's your fault.

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AMA 87959, IMPBA 19650 CD, IBDBG #2, local 12
There's A Reason I'm Behind You. You're About To Be Lapped!!!

(in reply to Liberator)
       Post #: 66

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/12/2006 3:17:36 AM   
piper_chuck



Posts: 7896
Joined: 6/13/2004
From: Pittsboro, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER

JR, what's gotten into you? Second time, same thread, you are attacking someone for no reason at all.
The guy stated his opinion, and it's a very reasonable opinion, whydoyahatfa go bite his head off like that?
What's going on?

Calling someone stupid is an attack. Pointing out inconsistancies in what they say is not an attack. Why is it reasonable for a person to assert that somone else's opinions don't matter, but then to state their own, opposite opinion?

_____________________________

AMA 87959, IMPBA 19650 CD, IBDBG #2, local 12
There's A Reason I'm Behind You. You're About To Be Lapped!!!

(in reply to EASYTIGER)
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