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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/13/2006 12:36:34 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

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From: nyc, NY, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Liberator

"Notice it said that a reasonable person could conclude that an unmarked chain under these circumstances would be likely to cause serious injury or death to such trespassers."

All I ask is for everyone to read the above sentence very carefully.

Is it reasonable to have to conduct your business so as to allow access to people you want to keep out? Would a reasonable person not slowly approach a pair of poles sticking above the ground to ascertain whether or not they held up an obstruction? I understand your point very well STL...but.... what kind of a world do we live in when a landowner is at fault for a very unreasonable mistake on the part of a law breaker? Please don't go over the "but you can be sued and all the other silliness. I get it.

My opinion, whether you think it counts or not. Is that if you come onto my property uninvited and in fact unlawfully, you very well get what you deserve. and If I find ya laying on the ground all broken, I will probably just back the ditch witch up and toss a load over ya. Of course I will stop and say a few words like ashes to ashes and all that stuff. I might even toss a flower on ya once a year. Frankly, thats as far as I go, and ya ought to feel pretty damn good I did that much for ya.

The above was just stated to see if STL would shout at me too




I love all the tough talk, it sounds so great on paper!
I think you are going to find yourself in jail, even in Utah, for shooting people just for trespassing. But, hey, let's hope we never find out!

(in reply to Liberator)
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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/13/2006 7:10:58 AM   
ira d


 

Posts: 836
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I think we can all agree it would be wise to mark and try to make more visible
any barrier we put up, that being said some have brought out the point that
most people that run into barriers were for one careless or did not know the
barrier was there because they were trepassing.

I find it interesting the way dave brown made such a big deal about this being
a major emergency and to drop what you are doing and go out to the field
but i wonder if he sent an email to all the club saffety officers about this.

Sending an email would have made sure all clubs had this info months before
the article came out, JR had this info about two months ago and im sure the
AMA was aware of this long before that.

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/13/2006 2:38:27 PM   
airbatic


 

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From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
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88

Kraus

< Message edited by airbatic -- 3/13/2006 2:40:21 PM >

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       Post #: 103

RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/13/2006 3:52:50 PM   
Liberator


 

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From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		Umm sorry but where did I say I was going to shoot anyone?
I was saying if I am out on my property and I find you all dead and busted up, I'd be decent enough to bury you.

Sheesh theres gratitude for ya.



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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 5:04:41 AM   
EASYTIGER


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Liberator

Umm sorry but where did I say I was going to shoot anyone?
I was saying if I am out on my property and I find you all dead and busted up, I'd be decent enough to bury you.

Sheesh theres gratitude for ya.




Mighty kind of you!
If I found YOU all dead and busted up on MY property, likely as not I would part you out to medical companies and grind up the rest for dog chow! Waste not want not! Hey, any corpses found on MY land are MY property to do as I see fit! Says so right there in the Constutition.

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 5:57:39 PM   
Liberator


 

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From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		Which would be fine, just don't plan any major nest egg around my alcholol shredded liver, or Lungs by Marlboro.
Which amendment is that by the way.

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 6:59:41 PM   
captinjohn


 

Posts: 6272
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From: Hesperia, MI, USA
Status: offline 		It is a mistake on the Clubs part by not making the gate more visible and most important out of a material like orange plastic snow fence...something that would have broke away and not killed some person on a motorcyle or simular type of machine. Also could have had a break-away fence on the road a hundred yards before main gate. Kinda like in michigan...they put up blinking caution lights before a new install of stop lights on highways. The Club is at fault....sorry but that is the way it is. Capt,n

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 7:16:06 PM   
EASYTIGER


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Liberator

Which would be fine, just don't plan any major nest egg around my alcholol shredded liver, or Lungs by Marlboro.
Which amendment is that by the way.


At the very least, you are worth some $7.63 in raw chemicals, even if all the individual parts are run out and unuseable!


Breakaway fence? Never heard of them, seems like a good idea...

I think you had better get your flame suit on, though, for saying it was the club's fault...you are going to get pummeled for that!

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 7:53:41 PM   
piper_chuck



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quote:

ORIGINAL: captinjohn

It is a mistake on the Clubs part by not making the gate more visible and most important out of a material like orange plastic snow fence...something that would have broke away and not killed some person on a motorcyle or simular type of machine. Also could have had a break-away fence on the road a hundred yards before main gate. Kinda like in michigan...they put up blinking caution lights before a new install of stop lights on highways. The Club is at fault....sorry but that is the way it is. Capt,n

Are you talking in general, or about the specific incident that DB wrote about? If it's the specific incident, did you read the post describing the markings at this place? If not, consider searching through the thread and then rethinking your conclusion.

There are a couple problems with break away fences. First, vandals often just tear them down. Second, at the speeds a modern sport bike is able to reach, even the smallest barrier can result in a loss of control.

< Message edited by piper_chuck -- 3/14/2006 7:55:30 PM >

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 8:14:10 PM   
scottrc



Posts: 2309
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From: A TREE, KS, USA
Status: offline 		After reading these posts for some time, I would like to add some personal experience. About 22 years ago, I rode my motrocycle into a barbed wire fence that was strewn across the private road that I used to ride down. The owner never posted it, just one night, got tired of us kids riding up and down his road and laid the wire across the road.

I was messed up pretty bad. Anyway, the Sherrif was called out and the owner was cited for neglegent intent to do harm, maim, or kill. He ended up paying all my medical costs, a very large fine, 100 hrs of community service and two years probation.

Check your laws governing private property, if you set up any barreries such as high voltage fences, barriers that can cut, explode, or do harm across rights of entry, then you are in serious trouble if some tresspasser get hurt. This includes doors, windows, and even ventelation shafts as one local hobby store found out when the owner set up a snare in the shaft because a burgular kept breaking in through it. The burgular got stuck and almost died from suffocation because the snare line was caught around his neck. The owner ended up paying for the burgulars medical costs and pain and suffering compensation plus got some probation for again, the intent to main, harm, or kill.


Dave Brown is right in that we must check how safe and legal our current tresspassing prevention is. As for how he wrote it, well, I think he the "Chicken Little" approach was a bit much.

Scott

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 10:00:17 PM   
STLPilot


 

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quote:

After reading these posts for some time, I would like to add some personal experience. About 22 years ago, I rode my motrocycle into a barbed wire fence that was strewn across the private road that I used to ride down. The owner never posted it, just one night, got tired of us kids riding up and down his road and laid the wire across the road.

I was messed up pretty bad. Anyway, the Sherrif was called out and the owner was cited for neglegent intent to do harm, maim, or kill. He ended up paying all my medical costs, a very large fine, 100 hrs of community service and two years probation.


Thank god we fianlly have someone with practical experience and a person that knows what he's talking about. Just seems like the great states of NC, TX and UT are dissimilar then the rest of the other 47 States.

And before you NC's, TX's and UT's come out and say that barbed wire is more deadly then a chain, then you've never been hit with a chain at high speed before. If you want to give it a test hit yourself over the head with a really good sized chain, then try it with a piece of barbed wire. One does as much damage as the other. Let us know the results!

< Message edited by STLPilot -- 3/14/2006 10:02:54 PM >

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 10:14:23 PM   
piper_chuck



Posts: 7896
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From: Pittsboro, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

After reading these posts for some time, I would like to add some personal experience. About 22 years ago, I rode my motrocycle into a barbed wire fence that was strewn across the private road that I used to ride down. The owner never posted it, just one night, got tired of us kids riding up and down his road and laid the wire across the road.

I was messed up pretty bad. Anyway, the Sherrif was called out and the owner was cited for neglegent intent to do harm, maim, or kill. He ended up paying all my medical costs, a very large fine, 100 hrs of community service and two years probation.


Thank god we fianlly have someone with practical experience and a person that knows what he's talking about. Just seems like the great states of NC, TX and UT are dissimilar then the rest of the other 47 States.

And before you NC's, TX's and UT's come out and say that barbed wire is more deadly then a chain, then you've never been hit with a chain at high speed before. If you want to give it a test hit yourself over the head with a really good sized chain, then try it with a piece of barbed wire. One does as much damage as the other. Let us know the results!

This is obviously VERY DIFFERENT from what's been discussed in this thread, but it's doubtful you would ever acknowledge it. Keep trolling!

< Message edited by piper_chuck -- 3/14/2006 10:15:17 PM >

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/14/2006 11:00:44 PM   
Liberator


 

Posts: 805
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		We save the chains for you Eastern folks.

I am pretty certain that the situation that was descibed by Scott is just a tad different than what we have been discussing.
And for the third time let me just re-state what I have said all along in a slightly different way.

Mark your chains and gates with something visable..never mind, that would offend.
Does that make ya feel better there STL?



< Message edited by Liberator -- 3/15/2006 1:35:20 AM >

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/15/2006 11:10:24 AM   
STLPilot


 

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quote:

I am pretty certain that the situation that was descibed by Scott is just a tad different than what we have been discussing.
Really, what would be a tad different about it?

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/15/2006 4:39:24 PM   
Liberator


 

Posts: 805
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From: Sandy, UT, USA
Status: offline 		Well in Scott's case (and of course this is how I read what he had written) some guy was tired of he and others riding down a road by his house, so he stretched a nearly invisible obstruction across a road.

In the other cases, there has been a pretty visable point of entry to a property line that is bordered in most cases by a fence of some sort. So if you are riding down a road that you have ridden on a hundred time and out of the blue, with nothing to give reason that there should be an obstruction, bam you get layed low, then obviously the person that did that was trying to hurt someone.

In the other cases, if you go hammering between fence poles or gate poles at a high rate of speed, with out seeing what is between them, then your not being very prudent about your own safety are you?



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One man's crash is another man's carefully planned landing maneuver.

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RE: Very interesting article by Dave Brown... - 3/15/2006 4:48:44 PM   
EASYTIGER


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Liberator

Well in Scott's case (and of course this is how I read what he had written) some guy was tired of he and others riding down a road by his house, so he stretched a nearly invisible obstruction across a road.

In the other cases, there has been a pretty visable point of entry to a property line that is bordered in most cases by a fence of some sort. So if you are riding down a road that you have ridden on a hundred time and out of the blue, with nothing to give reason that there should be an obstruction, bam you get layed low, then obviously the person that did that was trying to hurt someone.

In the other cases, if you go hammering between fence poles or gate poles at a high rate of speed, with out seeing what is between them, then your not being very prudent about your own safety are you?




The courts are going to look at each case on an individual basis. You can be sure, though, that a brighly marked orange fence with reflectors is going to show an intent of just trying to keep people out, and a thin metal chain that is unmarked might be interpreted differently.

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