RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood)

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood)
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RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/21/2006 1:29:07 PM

Digger44

Posts: 531
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Newnan, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rainedav

stiletto660, the Brodak clear that I will use for final coats is amazingly glossy. Almost too slick and shiny for my taste. I tested it by spraying three light final coats on a Jr. Skylark last week and it's as shiny as any plastic film I've ever used, but it's a much deeper gloss than Monokote since you have the actual thickness of the clear dope. It also seems as light, if not lighter, than plastic film. But, if you really want the Concours look, Brodak recommends using Meguiar's Mirror Glaze Compound to add even more shine.

rainedav, awesome job. Can't wait to see the finished product. I had been considering the koverall for a build I am doing now but the unknown weight addition is scaring me away. Your results have just about convinced me to change my mind again. I really like the durability of the koverall fabric compared to ultracoat. Plus the added benefit being able to be a little more artistic with the color schemes. I wanted to do a 60's era scheme. In your statement above you seem to think that there is not much if any weight penalty compared to plastic films. If this is even remotely possible I would not hesitate. I am not doubting what you say as I have no reference and have not done any fabric covering and very little film.

This is what I do know:
Koverall fabric is sold at 1.25 oz. per SQ. YD. and Monokote is sold at 0.2 oz/sq ft/ x9= 1.8 oz. per SQ.YD. 1/2 oz. per sq.yd. margin on the plus side without finish. What I don't know is the added weight from the dope and layers of paint. Do you by chance have a Sq.ft scrap of koverall with finish applied to get an accurate weight from. You might have done this at some point to test application? If so that would be great. It would be a good quantification of the weight penalty/benefit. If you don't have anything like this thats ok. I may just go ahead with it anyway based on what you said already. I understand that this is really hard to measure and results will be different for each user based on skill,materials used, application, and size.

I am building a 27% so any info you might will be appreciated. With this size plane I was thinking that using fabric and dope would be adding a couple pounds in weight. I sincerely hope I am wrong about this. My Current Build

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Post #: 176

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/21/2006 2:56:24 PM

rainedave

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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
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Hi Digger44. First, your Extra looks beautiful. Awesome building!

I wish I had thought to paint a sq. foot of Koverall as a sample. I will do that this week. Your info on Koverall and Monokote matches the charts I've found online:

http://www.fatlion.com/sailplanes/weights.html
http://webpages.charter.net/rcfu/HelpsHints/IOCWeight.html
http://www.modelflight.com/weight.html

I do know from my own experience that dope is an extremely light finish, especially when used on silk. I doubt there is any way that dope could add pounds of weight to a 27% model. But, like you said, there are a lot of variables in painted finishes.

Looking at those charts I'm estimating that Koverall and dope would weigh maybe 4 or 5 grams more per sq foot that opaque MK. I don't know what the overall surface area of your model is, but on 5000 sq inches of surface area that would be about a 5oz to 6oz difference, if my math is correct. Clearly, Koverall is heavier than silk and dope, which is lighter than Monokote. It's a shame Japanese Esaki silk is so darn expensive, although some people use Thai silk which is a lot more affordable.

Based on the wing area of your Midwest Extra (1162), adding 5ozs to the overall weight adds .62ozs to the wing loading. I don't think I would be able to "feel" that difference in flight. When you factor in wind, temperature and fuel differences I doubt it could possibly be noticed.

Personally, the Koverall/dope route is more than worth the weight gain. The finish will not sag, wrinkle, bubble or peel up over time like every Monokote job I've ever done has. Granted, I'm not very good at using iron-on coverings. You probably don't encounter those problems. Plus, you will have a model that will look unique and really stand out at the field.

Thanks, David

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Post #: 177

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/21/2006 3:37:47 PM

Digger44

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From: Newnan, GA, USA
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Thanks Dave,
I learn something new every day. I didn't realize that different colors have different weights, even with the same manufacturer. Those links have some pretty good info. I got weight info straight off the Tower site. It's looking more and more like I will be able to do the Koverall on the extra. I might have to pony up for a sprayer though. I have actually never used Monokote other than patching and such. Ultracote ,I am told, is easier to use so that is what I currently use. Hanger rash can really destroy a good looking film covering job in a hurry. If your estimates are close then you are right, I would never be able to tell the difference in flight.

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Post #: 178

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/21/2006 6:52:55 PM

rainedave

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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
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As the old cliché goes, necessity is the mother of invention. Take one artificial X-mas tree stand, the extension from an old vaccum cleaner and a bar clamp. Drill two holes in a block of wood and attach it to the fuselage with the nylon wing bolts. Secure the block of wood in the bar clamp and slide the clamp into the vaccum extension. Instant painting stand! I also have a spring-loaded clamp that fits into the extension that will hold the wing vertically. Sometimes it's good to be a pack rat.

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Post #: 179

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/21/2006 8:58:16 PM

turbo.gst

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From: Midland, TX, USA
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rainedav,

That is a really neat invention.. Well done!!

turbo

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Post #: 180

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 2:37:07 AM

rainedave

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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
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Thanks, turbo!

This has definitely been a "poor man's project." I've tried hard not to skimp on the quality of any of the materials or hardware - and I don't think I have, but I've made my own tools where ever I could. I've also done a bit of shopping around for the best buys for a lot of stuff like the $85 Craftsman compressor on sale, the $85 Tower .61, etc. There's nothing cheap about the quality of any of this stuff, but it would have been very easy to spend two or three times what I have. The caveat is time. It's taken patience and research to find better deals while still getting good, reliable products. On the other hand, it's kind of ridiculous what one can pour into this hobby on those "money-is-no-object" projects.

I sprayed the Cessna White today. The weather was almost perfect. A rain front moved through yesterday and cleaned the air. It was cool with very low humidity; what the local news calls a "green air quality day." Now it's time to map out the color scheme; one that will hide any goofs I made in the white base coat.

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Post #: 181

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 4:24:59 AM

mmattockx

Posts: 2256
Joined: 4/28/2005
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Digger44

Thanks Dave,
I learn something new every day. I didn't realize that different colors have different weights, even with the same manufacturer. Those links have some pretty good info. I got weight info straight off the Tower site. It's looking more and more like I will be able to do the Koverall on the extra. I might have to pony up for a sprayer though. I have actually never used Monokote other than patching and such. Ultracote ,I am told, is easier to use so that is what I currently use. Hanger rash can really destroy a good looking film covering job in a hurry. If your estimates are close then you are right, I would never be able to tell the difference in flight.

Don Ramsey has posted a fair compilation of covering weights, including silk and Koverall.

http://members.cox.net/don.ramsey/WeightComponents.htm

Koverall is about 1/2 the weight of Monokote and with decent painting technique, you should end up about the same or maybe 10-15% heavier. That is a fair trade for a finish that is far tougher and better looking, IMO.

Mark

P.S. - Gorgeous plane, Dave. I love the Koverall and dope finish, can't wait to see the Brodak clear when it's done. I may have to invest in some for a couple of planes I have in the building que.

< Message edited by mmattockx -- 9/22/2006 4:26:36 AM >

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Post #: 182

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 6:02:40 AM

vasek

Posts: 2040
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From: centre, QC, CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rainedav

On the other hand, it's kind of ridiculous what one can pour into this hobby on those "money-is-no-object" projects.

A-man to that, lol!

Rainedav, you have done a swell job not going overboard but still staying "honest"... good job

V.

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Post #: 183

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 3:16:29 PM

Bob R2

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From: , TX, USA
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This has been a very enjoyable thread to follow. Great work!

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Post #: 184

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 4:13:41 PM

bob27s

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From: Cleveland, OH, USA
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I agree... awesome thread.....

The Koverall approach is somewhat of a long-lost secret. Does provide some excellent results huh

You mentioned a poor-man's project. Back in the pattern days (80s) at least for me it was all poor-mans project. Building something like this was a way to keep costs down, and one could afford to actually travel to contests. I seem to recall being able to build a Tipo with an OS61 up fron for about $500 ready to fly at one time (less radio gear). What you have here is a good example of what many of us flew, and a similar approach.

This bird is going to fly as good as it looks

Bob

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Post #: 185

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 7:24:24 PM

8178

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Great work on the finishing and paint!

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Post #: 186

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 8:57:43 PM

Digger44

Posts: 531
Joined: 12/22/2004
From: Newnan, GA, USA
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Thanks for the info mmattockx. It's getting harder and harder now to use weight gain as an excuse to not use the koverall.

I already have the Koverall but not the dope and whatever else I need. I will pick up a sprayer somewhere, maybe the 10$ one. What brands do you guys recommend on the dope and paint?? Well I thinks this thread has persuaded me into doing my original scheme wit the koverall. Wish me luck, I will need it. Oh, I hope you don't mind if I post a question or three once I get started with this?
Thanks,
Bob

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Post #: 187

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/22/2006 9:34:30 PM

rainedave

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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
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Thanks you guys! Everyone's suppoprt has been greatly appreciated. Means a lot!

Bob, the Brodak dope is awesome stuff. Lots of pigment in the mix.

I just got back from the Sherwin Williams store. I asked about their latex paint. A lot of people these days are using water-based latex to paint their models. It's less expensive, you can get any colors you want mixed, it cleans up with water and I understand the fumes are not as dangerous. If you search the warbirds and giant scale forums here you'll probably find a lot of info on latex. It's really popular with those crowds. I'm just offering this as an alternative to dope. In fact, I have an old Goldberg Tiger II that I plan to cover with the Koverall that's left over and try out the latex stuff on it. I think you clear-coat the paint with Minwax water-based Polycrylic for the final, fuel-proofing stage. Anyway, it sounds like an interesting and economical alternative.

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Post #: 188

RE: Bridi UFO Build (all wood) - 9/25/2006 6:27:19 AM

Jim_Purcha

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Currently on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.ca/BRIDI-U-F-O-60-SIZE-R-C-PATTERN-SHIP-KIT_W0QQitemZ330032860500QQihZ014QQcategoryZ19164QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem