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6 volt should or should you not - 12/8/2002 10:41:36 AM   
coony2787



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i have just started using 6 volt pacs . the first expierence was good. the secound i lost an airplane due to low batteries. my question is do you or do not run a regulator on 6 volt pacs. the guys at my field all laugh at me for trying to run the 6 volts they say iam just wasting my time and costing myself money. but i need the extra torgue that the six volts gives me and the wieght i can save by using hs225 servo's . any info on this subject would be greatly apreciated. thanks
Chad

< Message edited by coony2787 -- Dec 12 2002 4:49AM >


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I use em - 12/8/2002 11:39:15 AM   
edge_fanatic


 

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First, fully charged 5-cell packs are more than 6v by a fair margin...

I use 5-cell packs on my 1/4 scale planes...As you said, what 5-cells (the higher voltage) give you is greater torque from your servos. But at the greater voltage, there is also greater current draw. Run 1700 mah packs and you'll generally be fine for up to five flights, depending on how hard you fly the plane....Check the batteries with a loaded voltmeter to be sure.
A regulator is fine if you think you need one. But, make sure the regulator you get doesn't go into current limiting under the conditions you are running...Current limiting basically limits the current flow, causing the advantage of using 5-cell packs to be diminished...

I run 5-cell packs without regulators and have been fine...Using a regulator is only necessary in very isolated circumstances. If you are running "normal" radio equipment (not a heli, for example, where a gyro probably can't take the 7+ volts that a 5-cell pack will have at full charge ) you'll most likely be fine without one.

I am not sure whether the 225's are rated for 6v. Ck with Mike from Hitec. he'll give you straight skinny on them.

Good luck!

--Sean

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/8/2002 7:03:52 PM   
coony2787



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thanks for the info, the hs 225 say right on the side box they came in. 6.0 volts and the rated torgue they put out at 6.0 v . thanks for the advice.
Chad

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Re: 6 volts should you or not - 12/8/2002 9:31:54 PM   
sfaust



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by coony2787
i have just started using 6 volt pacs . the first expierence was good. the secound i lost an airplane due to low batteries. my question is do you or do not run a regulator on 6 volt pacs. the guys at my field all laugh at me for trying to run the 6 volts they say iam just wasting my time and costing myself money. but i need the extra torgue that the six volts gives me and the wieght i can save by using hs225 servo's . any info on this subject would be greatly apreciated. thanks
Chad
[/QUOTE]

Sorry to hear about the loss of the plane. Do you think it was low batteries because of the 6v pack, or other reasons? Could it have been that you were not familiar with the higher current drain of 6v vs. 4.8v? What about charging, was the charger configured correctly for 6v? Just trying to thow out some ideas so it won't happen again.

Let them laugh. As edge_fanatic points out, there are advantages to running 6volt packs. If you need the torque, then you need the torque. Running 6v is a sure way to get it. If it was a waste of money and time, I wonder why so many people are doing it successfully

Luckily, the guys are our field are open to new ideas, and like to learn more and more about all this stuff. They are interested in new teqhniques, and whenever someone takes out a plane thats different, new, or big, they all want to see whats in it, and how it all works. Certainly more fun than trying to defend tried and true techniques to a bunch of old school know it alls

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 12:08:10 AM   
coony2787



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the plane that crashed was an omp gs 540. it was the fourth flight of the plane. the pack was new. i had charged it then i set the plane up with it and the i cycled the battery. i flew the plane on sunday 1 time then again on monday with out charging. then on the next sunday i went to the feild and fast charged with a double vision fast charger just to be safe not thinking that the battery should of been dead yet. but being on the safe side i chargded any ways. on the secound flight of the day i pulled up into a hover went to do a water fall the plane went full throttle and that was it no more control. now that i think back the plane seemed to be a little slow in an airleron roll i did just before i pulled up into a hover. the battery pack was destoyed in the crash. i could not even find all the cells. the guys at my feild since i was running six volts they all blamed it on that. i dont agree with the guy above to many people running 6 volts and having perfect succes so i dont know if it was tha battery or not buit all the other components worked when i plugged a new pack into it.
Chad

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 2:42:38 AM   
CAPtain232



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There are soooo many times that it is not the batteries, but the switch harness instead. For the higher current draw when using 6 volt pack, it takes a heavy duty switch.

When you break it down, the wire is of a good enough size to handle the load. The switch itself though is a whole other story. This is one of the things that I wish manufacturers would list on the package. The mini switches are a MAJOR no no with anything over a 40 size plane IN MY BOOK.

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Re: Re: 6 volts should you or not - 12/9/2002 3:32:21 AM   
coony2787



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sfaust


Sorry to hear about the loss of the plane. Do you think it was low batteries because of the 6v pack, or other reasons? Could it have been that you were not familiar with the higher current drain of 6v vs. 4.8v? What about charging, was the charger configured correctly for 6v? Just trying to thow out some ideas so it won't happen again.

Let them laugh. As edge_fanatic points out, there are advantages to running 6volt packs. If you need the torque, then you need the torque. Running 6v is a sure way to get it. If it was a waste of money and time, I wonder why so many people are doing it successfully

Luckily, the guys are our field are open to new ideas, and like to learn more and more about all this stuff. They are interested in new teqhniques, and whenever someone takes out a plane thats different, new, or big, they all want to see whats in it, and how it all works. Certainly more fun than trying to defend tried and true techniques to a bunch of old school know it alls
[/QUOTE]

i meant to say that i do agree with guy above!!!!

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 5:47:30 AM   
sfaust



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by coony2787
the plane that crashed was an omp gs 540. it was the fourth flight of the plane. the pack was new. i had charged it then i set the plane up with it and the i cycled the battery. i flew the plane on sunday 1 time then again on monday with out charging. then on the next sunday i went to the feild and fast charged with a double vision fast charger just to be safe not thinking that the battery should of been dead yet. but being on the safe side i chargded any ways. on the secound flight of the day i pulled up into a hover went to do a water fall the plane went full throttle and that was it no more control. now that i think back the plane seemed to be a little slow in an airleron roll i did just before i pulled up into a hover. the battery pack was destoyed in the crash. i could not even find all the cells. the guys at my feild since i was running six volts they all blamed it on that. i dont agree with the guy above to many people running 6 volts and having perfect succes so i dont know if it was tha battery or not buit all the other components worked when i plugged a new pack into it.
Chad
[/QUOTE]

From what you say, its not the 6volt pack. It could be the battery, but the same could have happened on a 4.8 pack. They guys are just guessing on what might have happened, and couldn't provide any hard data to suggest it was the 6v pack.

I find it interesting that most, if not all, the TOC pilots are running 6v packs on planes with much higher current drain, and they are not falling out of the sky. In IMAC, 6v packs are the norm, with most people using them. Many manufacturers rate their servos on 6v packs, and recommend 4.8 and 6.0 volt batteries to power them. Yet these guys seem to know more than everybody else. I wish they would share it with the rest of the world

Feel confident that your decision to use a 6v pack did not cause your crash. However, I would highly recommend that you use a ESV meter before EVERY flight, and cycle your packs to determine your batteries capacity and the airplanes draw. That information will give you everything you need to know in order to avoid a crash based on a low battery condition.

It will tell you for example, that a 1700mah pack in plane X can go 8 flights before its at 30% remaining capacity. After each flight, you will be able to measure the battery with an ESV and check it against the chart or graph to see if everything is ok. Once you get used to how many flights you batteries can provide, and what the ESV meter should tell you after each flight, you will know without a doubt that everything is as it should be.

I start each new pack, and cycle it a couple times in the shop. Then I only take one to two flights with the plane, then cycle the batteries to read the capacity taken out. Next time, I will fly a couple extra flights if the buffer was reasonable. I keep doing that till I sneak up on the number of flights that get me to around 40% remaining capacity, or approximately 3 flights worth of capacity. That is my no fly limit. While doing all this, I track what the ESV meter is telling me so that I can use it later to determine if everything is ok. It also allows me to figure out how much each flight costs me in capacity.

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 5:49:52 AM   
caf2461


 

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Was your problem with a NIMH pack or Nicad? If NIMH you must charge fully the night before flying as they can loose thier charge fully in a couple days.

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 6:22:35 AM   
sfaust



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by caf2461
Was your problem with a NIMH pack or Nicad? If NIMH you must charge fully the night before flying as they can loose thier charge fully in a couple days. [/QUOTE]\

I don't believe this is true. Yes, they do loose their charge faster then NiCads, but by no means in a few days, or even a week. I've had NiMH packs sit for months, and still had charge in them.

Either way, he charged the plane that day, right there on the field, if I read his response correctly.

Does anyone know what the manufacturers specifications for self discharge characteristic is for NiMH vs NiCads? I have heard it is 1% per day, about in line with NiCads (From GP Technical Manual).

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 6:39:03 AM   
CAPtain232



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NiMH packs will lose charge just by sitting in heat. that being said, I have flown my plane after checking the pack when in sat in my hot shop for 2 weeks and flew it without charging.

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/9/2002 9:15:25 AM   
coony2787



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they were nicad batteries.

now after hearing your alls responeses i think that the batteries did not go dead , maybe a batery failure but not a dead batery. thanks
Chad

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/10/2002 6:45:46 AM   
caf2461


 

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Per the instructions on my 6v NIMH Panasonic pack:

"When not in use, NIMH batteries discharge themselves twice as quickly as Nicacs, perhaps within 3 or 4 days, it is strongly recommended to charge batteries just prior to use. NiMH batteries self discharge more rapidly in extreme temperature conditions (above 104 degrees or below 32 degrees). These conditions will not harm the battery, but will cause it to discharge more rapidly, shortening run time."

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6 volt should or should you not - 12/10/2002 7:51:04 AM   
sfaust



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Sanyo cells do not self discharge at a rate of 25% to 30% per day, which would be about what is required to be flat in the 3 or 4 days you suggested in your response. Sanyo cells seem to be the overwhelming choice of RC pilots. Maybe the Panasonic cells do discharge that fast, and that could be why they are not recommended for RC. However, most packs that are available for RC are typically Sanyo cells.

I couldn't lay my hands on the technical spec sheet from Sanyo, since I couldn't find their web page (if available), and a friend of mine who migth actually have the paper copies was not available.
But, the following links are from various sites that reference numbers in the 1% to 3% range. Some are technical references, specifications, and/or consumer infomation pages. But they all say a few percentage a day, or self discharge of a completely charged pack in 30 to 60 days. None suggest anything close to 3 or 4 days. These are all referencing industrial grade cells, or cells used to make high capacity cells for use in digital cameras, laptops, cell phones, etc. The same ones that are used to make RC packs.

There is lots of good information in these links in various other aspects of NiCad and NiMH technologies if one wants to take the time to wade through them.

I'll try to find the Sanyo sepc sheet, as that would be the final word, straight from the horses mouth as it were.

http://www.gpbatteries.com.hk/catalogues/NiCd.pdf

http://data.energizer.com/batteryinfo/application_manuals/nimh_application_manual.htm

http://www.flyifo.com/htmlpages/batteryinfo.html (nots on why Panasonic cells are not ideal in rc aircraft usage)

http://www.batterieswholesale.com/faq_nicad.htm#16

http://users.mweb.co.za/u/un/uniross/Technical.htm#NiCd%20vs%20NiMH

(This site references NiCad and NiMH self discharge rates of 25% per month, or 4 months to fully discharge a full pack)
http://www.ion-energy.com/ier/6#lsd

http://www.mahaenergy.com/support/techfact/q&a/mhc204f.htm

http://www.greenbatteries.com/documents/battery_myths.htm


While this site doesn't specify the self discharge rates, it does list good information on the process of self discharge for a wide variety of