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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/13/2002 8:57:49 AM   
BMatthews



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Diesels are more frugal with their fuel than glows for sure but they aren't THAT frugal. Typically about 20 or 30% more time per oz for the diesels when making the same amount of power.

Diesel fuel is roughly 1/3 kerosene, 1/3 ether and 1/3 oil with a dash of ingnitor helper tossed in. The ether provides the low flashpoint and the kerosene the power while the ignitor aid helps the ether. You can't sub as there's nothing else that will ignite under the compression ratios they use. And frankly the gains in run time aren't going to make it worth the fact that the fuel WILL permeate every stinking piece of wood in that model after about a year of use (that ether is super thin and gets past EVERYTHING and carries the oil with it). And I don't know where you heard about the low vibes thing. They shake much worse than a glow engine and require more solid mounts when building.

I used to fly Diesel combat for years. They ARE fun engines and nice in a way but frankly glow is easier.

If you want to extend the run time go for an ignition conversion of a glow engine or, since we are talking about a larger model, stay with the gas weed wacker type engines. Gas has more BTU per pound than the alchohal based glow fuel so you don't need as much of it for the work to be done. Here again it's about 10 or 15% better than the glow engines. But you need the spark to ignite it. The glow plug won't do it.


_____________________________

Bruce-
Proudly wasting balsa since 1965.

Free Flighters go that extra mile........

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 11:03:36 AM   
john_89


 

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Bruce: Thought whoever posted that info about diesels not vibrating was smoking something. Still kind of a neat engine to think about running in a model. Wonder what kind of compression ratio that engine runs? Are they actually quiter? I believe you were posting on a thread involving marathon competition flights & the use of a diesel for longer duration. Somewhere on there, if I remember right, it was stated the diesel could get 3minutes per oz. When you mention putting an ignition on a glow, are you talking gasoline conversion? It would be so much easier to do this electric. I think it would only take a 25 lb lead battery to power the thing for an hour using a 30 amp motor! What do you think could I swing it?

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 12:17:37 PM   
William Robison



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John:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by john_89
It would be so much easier to do this electric. I think it would only take a 25 lb lead battery to power the thing for an hour using a 30 amp motor! What do you think could I swing it? [/QUOTE]
But 30 amps at 12 volts is only 360 watts. That probably wouldn't be enough power to taxi the battery alone, much less fly. But you can get a 360 watt motor for $10.

General rule for electric flight, with reasonable performance, is 50 watts per pound. With your 25 lb battery that means 1250 watts for the battery alone. You're getting into the $300- $400 dollar range for the motor without including the motor controller.

There are batteries with much higher power density than lead-acid, the airplane could be built using lithium-polymer batteries, for example, but you'd still have to add a lot of "Lightness" to get much more than 12-15 munutes duration under power.

For all of this you still read expensive. Piston power is much cheaper for the same performance.

Many large electric airplanes have been built and flown successfully, but you're opening another large can of worms. Small electrics, OK, but endurance and small electrics don't go together, except for sailplanes.

Can you count on thermal activity? If yes, a sailplane might work. BUT. An efficient sail plane is again, an expensive thing, whether bought or built, because of the materials required.

Pardon me for breaking in on your question to Bruce, but I do have several electric flying machines, including two helicopters.

Want to fly long? Twins make a nice song.

Bill.

_____________________________

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 12:39:52 PM   
john_89


 

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Had thought of hybrid design. Main power gasoline (why are the gas models engines so large?) w/ an electric pusher for stealth, backup, & acting airspeed indicator. Gas tractoring & electric pushing or some other variation thereof. Not, right. The electric prop would be to much drag wouldn't it? I guess the goal still is to maximize fuel economy & minimize noise on the fuelster. I am really beginning to wonder how small an airframe I can get by w/. It seems the large size of a fuel efficent 4 stroker & its fuelload are the main factors in size & payload. Not the cams & electronic piloting controls. Thanks Bill

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 12:58:46 PM   
john_89


 

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Bill you keep alluding to twins being better in your equips. Let me in on the secret. Mama don't want no secrets here.

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 1:42:15 PM   
William Robison



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John:

Problem with a hybrid like that is that the lower powered engine or motor should be the sustaining power source. No problem shutting the piston engine down, but after you loiter on electric (Batteries are still heavy) you'd have to restart the piston engine to return. Much easier and more practical to use the battery/motor/speed control weight for fuel.

Twins.

Got my MEL rating about 1955, and almost all of my time since 1958 has been twin jet. (Courtesy of Uncle.) So I'm partial to twins. Seven years ago I built my first R/C twin. I still put singles together - right now I have a Sig J-3 under construction. But I also have three twins in the works, two more twin kits ordered, and dickering for another.

So, being stuck on twins, I try to spread the infection in a subtle manner.

Want to fly with a thrill? Do twins and you will!

Bill.

PS: I have about 15 hours of EIGHT engine time. In Buff's.

< Message edited by William Robison -- Dec 15 2002 8:48AM >


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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 2:22:32 PM   
john_89


 

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BUFF(Big Ugly Fat Fellow)B-52.What an awesome peace of made in America hardware. Something to see1 of those take off at a 6+ degree cant. Never have seen any OTHER jumbos do that! Hope the Buffs get their engine upgrades. Should save a few oil tanker loads of JP-4! Have any diesel experience?

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 2:34:28 PM   
William Robison



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John:

Diesel experience in trucks,cars, boats, or airplanes? Or stationary power units?

Diesel twin plane, man what a pain.

Bill.

PS: I never heard anyone say "Fellow." wr

_____________________________

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AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 2:41:11 PM   
john_89


 

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RC plane. Thats the ah... Discovery Channel polite term.

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 6:32:43 PM   
William Robison



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John:

Being, among other things, an ex-schoolteacher I am fully aware that PTA does not stand for "Parent-Teacher Association." You need not have consideration for my virgin ears as they have already heard it all.

Diesel R/C, no experience. Diesel U/C, yes. Do I want diesel R/C experience? No.

Bruce, in his #26 post, gave the two main reasons. If they don't shake the plane apart (you can use a soft mount) the fuel residue turns the airframe into a blob. I have glow fueled R/C planes still in good flying condition more than ten years old. One is at least 15 years old. I have one U/C plane more than 40 years old, still flyable. Never had a Diesel model last as long as one year.

Add the difficulty of getting the fuel to having to heat the engine with a torch to get it running in cold weather, (If you can get your butane torch to light in the cold weather) and I don't think there is anything to be gained by their use.

Does this answer your unspoken questions? I'm sure there will be those who disgree with my opinions, here. But remember that opinions are like "Liberal politicians;" everybody has a "Ted Kennedy" hole. Or it goes something like that.

When you fly a low pass, roll!
Don't chicken out and show your (Al Gore.)

Bill.

PS: Do you remember the fellow who made front ends of horses, and shipped them to Washington D. C. for final assembly? wr

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 7:57:45 PM   
john_89


 

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Bill I bet you looked good in the "Buff". Only 15 hrs, whats that about. Yeah, any diesel is a violent beast. I guess the Soviets actually flew a 4 engine diesel bomber over Deutchland back in WWII. The plane was plagued by reliability problems. Saw limited use only. Wonder if that was the only time a diesel was used in a full size aircraft? I understand, from 1 of the other forums, that converting glow to gasoline isno menial task. Besides perhaps 1 of the Ryobis & the Hindus, I don't see many weedwackers that are 4 stroke. 4 stroke would seem to be 1 of the keys to stealth. I got to get to the local RC flyers meeting & see some of the different set ups. Maybe they'll have diesels on a Buff. John

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 8:17:53 PM   
William Robison



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John:

In the 1930's there was a USA developed diesel radial engine, I thnk it was offered as an option powerplant in some bird, don't rmember which. As you may suspect, it wasn't a huge success.

The Germans also developed and used some military diesel a/c in the middle to late '30s and early 1940s.

Converting glow to gas isn't complicated, and gives slightly better economy, you still have to use a rich oil mix (20-30%) because they aren't designed for the 30:1 or 40:1 mix of the weed eater type engines. And you'd probably be disappointed with the power, or lack thereof, with a converted glow engine.

Couple years ago I heard about a 4s Hindu conversion for planes, heard nothing since. Might be available, don't know. But the two stroke gassers have pretty good fuel rates anyway.

Gas conversion from glow? For my twins I say no.

Bill.

_____________________________

Real Airplanes have Two Engines
AMA 25139 - More than 40 years.

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/15/2002 9:01:41 PM   
john_89


 

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Is there any mechanism for advancing the ignition timing w/ increasing RPMs on these little engines?

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Long-range, Slow Low Flight Design(s) - 12/16/2002 12:38:55 AM   
BMatthews



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[QUOTE]Originally posted by William Robison
.....So, being stuck on twins, I try to spread the infection in a subtle manner...... [/QUOTE]


[SIZE=4]SUBTLE ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?[/SIZE]


BWAAHUAHUAAAAHAHAHAHAHA HA HA ha ha........ha........

Jeez Bill, don't do that to me when I'm drinking coffee, eh?

To catch up here. John 3 minutes per oz is doable on diesels that we use for control line combat and perhaps a somewhat larger one than the .15's I was using turning a bit slower. BUT you have to understand that the engine is only an energy conversion device and it's still largely a case of BTU's per horsepower and all that. And they aren't any quieter but the usually lower rpms is slightly less annoying. It's not a large difference though.

And I trust the electric option is a dead duck now. If not then it should be. It's just not a feasible option for your load and duration requirements.

And there's nothing basically wrong with Diesels for full sized aircraft at least. All those Messer