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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 3:36 AM   
khodges


 

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ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Ken,

Did these two planes with the offset vertical stabs have the trim tab on the rudder as well? I'm planning to make the rudder trim tab completely adjustable on this one. Not in flight, but statically. Seems as though this would preclude having the entire tail skewed>

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


Yeah, Master Chief, these UPF's still had the trim tab on the rudder. It differs from the YMF tab; instead of a discrete piece that fits within a cutout in the rudder as the YMF has, the UPF has a bendable tab riveted to the trailing edge. At any rate, both are ground adjustable only.

How will your trim tab work? Will it be sufficient size to cause the tail to deflect by itself? Certainly it can't work like the full scale does, by creating a force to move the entire rudder in the desired direction. Your servo would keep the rudder centered, or wherever your servo trim point was.

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 3:41 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Bill,

Good question, but it seems there were at least 4 different rudder trim tabs used by Waco and were only ground adjustable.

P1 – None - ASO, CTO, QCF-2, RNF, UBA and UBF-2 (UBA, NC 9220J shown)
P2 – Small Metal Tab – UPF-7, QDC and ZQC (UPF, NC 39727, shown). All the UPFs that were at the Fly In had this tab. **
P3 – Large Metal Tab – QDC and UEC (UEC, NC 13050 shown)
P4 – Inset Rudder Tab – YMF, UKC, UKS-7F and YKS (YMF, NC 14081 shown)
Bill, this is the style that would be correct on your plane.

**According to some of the owners, there is a notch in the fuselage former for the front of the vertical stabilizer to fit into and the exact placement of the notch varied slightly due to hand cutting of the formers.

Also note the various stabilizer thicknesses and rib shapes.


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< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 7/18/2007 3:47 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 3:43 AM   
khodges


 

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ORIGINAL: old git




Bill,

The following book on eBay may interest the Brotherhood. Decide who is bidding if you want it. I don't advise bidding against each other.


WACO - Symbol of Courage and Excellence - Vol.1
Item number: 290119148170






WACO Brotherhood No. 14.


old git - - - - - - -aka John L.



John--- why don't you buy it, and read it to us. I just love a good book in a British accent.

"This is WACOpiece Theatre; I'm your host, Alistair 'old git' Cooke. Today, we shall discuss the totally arcane and mysteriously indecipherable alphabet soup of WACO model codes."



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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 7:02 AM   
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Status: offline 		OK, here's my attempt at posting the "before" pics.



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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 3:46 PM   
aminiet



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Status: offline 		Gentlemen.

Went away for a week vacation in Los Angeles, return to find about 5 pages of posting.
Some body sure likes typing.
Regarding the corrugations. I built a 1/5 Pica Cessna Skylane and used plastic " L " angles, not triangles as mentioned on a previous post, probably the same brand name and bonded equally spaced with super glue, filled the edges with primer paint and sanded smoth.
It may seem like a lot of work, but I think it was worth it.

If super glue gets on your skin, use acetone, it disolves it right away.

Angel
B 58

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 4:07 PM   
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Status: offline 		Scott,

Definately worth bringing back. Just as I thought, even then they were UMF's too.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 4:12 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Ken and John,

John, thanks for the pics that you e-mailed to me. I will make the trim tab inset, and adjustable via a pushrod and link that can be adjusted for flying trim. The tab will be hinged, and the horn will have a clevis arrangement so the rod can be either shortened, or lengthened as necessary. I don't think that this tab will overcome a 133 in/oz digital servo, but I could be wrong. What do you guys think?

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 4:34 PM   
nine o nine


 

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Status: online 		An oiffset fixed trim tab on a servo driven control is of no value at all. You'll end up fighting the servo's neutral if the tab is offset to any degree....a linked, moveable tab (as in full scale called a servo or anti-servo tab ,depending on the linkage) could work on a model but in this case it's not scale. I suggest cutting the tab out of the rudder trailing edge in a scale fashion and reattatching the tab in a neutral position and use rudder trim on the transmitter as necessary for yaw free straight and level hands off flight at low to medium power settings. For all other speeds and maneuvers fly with the rudder stick as necessary.
Not bragging but I'm a very long time modeler as well as a full scale pilot, instructor, and mechanic. Mitch

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 4:52 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		So I guess what you are saying is that even with the holding power of a digital servo, the trim tab will overcome the servo's ability to hold center.....right?????

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 6:49 PM   
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"If super glue gets on your skin, use acetone, it disolves it right away."

It is better not to get the super glue or epoxy on your hands by wearing latex/nitrile type gloves. The acetone will enter your body right through the skin and could cause problems in the future. I use carpenters (yellow) glue for most of my building (comes off with saop and water) and only use CA (super glue) and epoxy when necessary. Stanley makes solvent (nitrile) gloves in a package of 12 (I think) for a few bucks. Found mine at Wal-Mart in the paint section.

< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 7/18/2007 6:52 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 7:45 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Bill,

What you are proposing with a push rod sounds a lot like a boost tab arrangement. The full size trim tab just had a nut and bolt clamping the curved track on the bottom of the tab to a small tab attached to the rudder. The trim tab is hinged at the ends (no Dubro or Robart type hinges) with a pin and socket type arrangement. I think I would go with Mitch and set the trim tab neutral and use the servo trim as required.


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< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 7/18/2007 7:46 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/18/2007 11:27 PM   
nine o nine


 

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Status: online 		Sorry if I'm not clear....the tab will only FIGHT the servo. Use the trim function on the tranny so that the SERVO holds the proper neutral. Ground adjustable tabs on full scale planes are set to take rudder pressure off the pedals (or in our case, the servo) at cruise airspeed. At all other times it's up to the pilot to perform coordinated or by choice uncoordinated flight using the pedals (our servos) as necessary.
Whay I'm trying to say....forget that there's a trim tab back there. Make it look as though there is one but don't use it. Trim the plane to fly yaw free at cruise flight the way us RC pilots have always done it....with the xmtr trim function.

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 9:13 AM   
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Status: offline 		All clear now Bill? The trim tab will have no effect on the airplanes trim, it's just too small. But it could make the servo work just a little harder to hold the nuetral you have set on the tranny. If you are using a Digital servo, this could lead to an increase in battery consumption. but that's about all it will do.
Evan, W.B. #12.

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 4:52 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Well, It seemed like a good idea though. I suppose that I'll actually hinge the tab, and lock it with a bolt through the slotted tab. What do you guys think about doing the offset vertical stab ala the full scale, as in the pics that John posted? Another exercise in futility, or what? I'm hoping that the adjustable incidence H-stab does not turn out the same way.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 5:40 PM   
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Status: offline 		I came to the conclusion awhile back that about 2 degrees of right thrust will be my plan to help negate the rudder trim issue. Am I on the right track here?

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 6:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		The offset does not affect a thing while flying. Even take offs are nice, I wouldn't put too much energy into it!
Like I mentioned before, if my cowl was off, I would put a degree or two of right thrust in it!


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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 8:24 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		I'm just not into having a prop that sits gillhooley to the cowl on a scale airplane. I do fly with the rudder, and I have been trimming models successfully for years. I just wanted to be able to add a little more scale realism with the trim tab. I guess I will make the tab look realistic, and not functional.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 8:25 PM   
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Status: online 		I'd set the vertical stab straight with the centerline and use a couple of degrees of right thrust at the firewall. Mitch WB #100

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 9:17 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Actually, I have built and flown several of these with different powerplants. The only significant place that I have seen where right thrust offset seems to help is on the up-lines and loops. You should be flying with the rudder, and you do your own corrections to the yaw axis. The up lines are made easier with built-in right thrust. The one with the MOKI 1.8 actually needed the built-in offset. So far, none of the rest have.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 9:38 PM   
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Status: online 		Bill, That's exactly why some of the full scale Wacos have fin offset but not all. Different powerplants....some with "gilhooley" engine offset even. I never heard that word before but I know exactly what it means. And good on you for using proper rudder control when it's necessary....It's the hardest control to teach a fixed wing pilot. Fling wing guys HAVE to use their feet (or left hand). Mitch WB#100

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 9:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		The trouble with engine offsets is that they only balance the engine torque at one set RPM. This is fine for a F/F model where the engine is always set at that RPM before the model is launched, and the operator can't affect it after that. Unfortunately, we boys have that little plastic box with an aerial and twitchy thumbs on little sticky out sticky things and that engine RPM is all over the place. I hear that the latest wheeze for those with confusers in their boxes is to arrange automatic trim compensation with power setting changes, ie Rudder to Throttle mix. It's all getting too much....
Evan, W.B. #12.

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/19/2007 11:03 PM   
khodges


 

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ORIGINAL: nine o nine

Bill, That's exactly why some of the full scale Wacos have fin offset but not all. Different powerplants....


Of all the different types I saw at CCA, only four of the UPF-7's had any tail offset, and they had the same Continental engine as the UPF's without tail offset. I can't speak for whether or not any of them had any offset thrust "engineered" into the engine mounts. If so, it was minimal, as cowl alignment with the engine cylinders would have been noticeable.

There was one plane there that had a "boost tab" if what I think skylarkmkI is talking about is correct. There was a VKS-7 cabin model that had the tab connected to a rod that extended to the empennage; when the rudder was deflected, the linkage on the tab caused it to deflect the opposite direction an equal amount. The effect would be to lessen pedal pressure from airstream resistance.

My UMF might be easier to take off if I had some right thrust to minimize torque reaction and P factor on takeoff, but I elected to take out the built in right thrust and learn to use the rudder. It's been a steep curve , but after working out the tailwheel adjustment, I've had better takeoffs, and the inflight performance hasn't seemed to suffer from no right thrust, this with a gas engine with greater torque available.

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< Message edited by khodges -- 7/19/2007 11:15 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/20/2007 1:08 AM   
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ORIGINAL: pimmnz

I hear that the latest wheeze for those with confusers in their boxes is to arrange automatic trim compensation with power setting changes, ie Rudder to Throttle mix. It's all getting too much....
Evan, W.B. #12.


Next thing you know, you'll see a built in program where the guys push a button on the RTF model, and the engine will start, the model will accelerate, take off, fly the full aresti pattern, land and shut down. Bah!!! That ain't flying!!!!!

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 7/20/2007 1:44 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Ken,

What you show on the VKS is what I was talking about. The YMF, YKSs, VKSand UKC all have rudder/vertical fins very similar to the YMF, but why the VKS has the boost tab in unknown.

With three different cowls on the various UPFs, it would be hard to detect any offset (right thrust) "engineered in" to the mounts. The ring cowls are mounted to the engine cylinder heads and would remain aligned with the engine. I believe the bump and smooth cowls are mounted the same but will check on that next time I am at CCA. On the bump/smooth cowls I think any offset for thrust would be noticed in the clearence between the rear of the cowl and the front fuselage sub cowl.

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RE: WACO YMF - 7/20/2007 1:59 AM   
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Status: offline 		We interupt this program to bring you this important public service announcement:

To those scratch building the 1/5 WACO from PICA/AMA plans: Trial fit your cabane assemblies into their notches early in your fuselage build up. I had failed to do so and it took a little time and kicking myself in the a*s to get them in there. The cabane notches in the formers were a little this way and that. They fit now but with a little gap here and there to the formers. Epoxy and microfibers will take care of the gaps though. Just a little heads up for ya.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming......

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< Message edited by damifino -- 7/20/2007 2:13 AM >

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