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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 5:17 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		John,

Mine is set up like the Barth for the present. I don't know how the Sierra will operate, but It's supposed to be scale. I'm going to need to cut mine completely out, and use a plate 1/4" to mount the gear. The shock bar idler will probably go there as well.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 6:40 AM   
Mr. Lucky



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Status: offline 		Hi Bill,

I was more worried about copying the real logo off of the NWC website. Andy has the settings so they can not be copied. That kind of tells me that they are concerned where the pictures and logo are copied to. Plus if you look at the bottom of the NWC Home page there is a notice that say's "Legal Junk". When he sent me all of the pictures it was because he knew I was certifiable and I was only using them for my own gratification. I was not worried about here because I know that the brotherhood is just as certifiable as you and I. Nice to hear from you. I was pretty confused for a while on the Waco Club Forum because I did not save the settings to find my way back to the "NEW" forum. The link from the home page only goes to the old forum. I went there a couple times and was deluged with popups and could not get out of there fast enough. Even with a popup blocker that site has been corrupted. I'm amazed with the depth of information contained on both this and the Waco Club forums. More of the brotherhood should join the National Waco Club if for no other reason but to gain the great information available on the forum. If they let you and I join they certainly will not mind another 80 members from the Waco Brotherhood.

http://www.nationalwacoclub.com click on membership.

Ben
Mr. Lucky
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National Waco Club # 112

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:18 AM   
Stickbuilder



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If you wish to post the pictures that are on the NWC site, you should contact the owner of that particular plane and get his permission to post the photo's elsewhere. I think that most of the members would probably send you more photos than you would want to see, and give you their permission. Then again, there would always be one member who would throw a fit, and tell you not only NO, but H**l NO!!!!!

As to being certifiable, speak for yourself. We take great pride in assisting each other with information, and research. This is aeromodelling at it's finest. If you don't think so, have a look in some of the other forums. A lot of the time, It's like someone threw a bucket of chum in a shark pool.

If you are still having problems accessing the NWC site, e-mail the President, and he will help you navigate the site.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:21 AM   
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Thanks for the heads up on the cowl yours looks real good. I've been pretty slow in my building but hope to get the rudder and elevator finished up this weekend then on to the fuselage.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:28 AM   
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Good to hear from you. Keep the faith. I know that you can do it. Are you going to be working at Top Gun this coming May (actually it starts in April)? I'll probably get down to Bartow before then. Hope to see you.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:48 AM   
HarryJ



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Yep, that is the RCS (Moki) 215. I saw Mikes at another event last summer, sure does a good job. That particular engine is much quieter than the comparable electrics I've seen and a lot more natural sounding.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 10:08 AM   
Mr. Lucky



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I'm sorry you got the wrong impression from what I said. I take great pride in being crazy about these aircraft. I have loved them since I was a boy and that was over 45 years ago. I have wanted to build a full scale biplane for at least 30 years. Building everything else over the last 30 years has never once meant anything less to me. Like you and many other guys on this site I have taken great pride in creating things that fly. Not just anyone can build something from sticks and fabric and have it soar into the blue the very first time you take it out to the field. How many times have you built something that flew perfectly the first time out. Remember the exhileration? Like I told you before, the guys on this site mean a bit more to me than the fullscale site. This site the guys appreciate what they have more because in most cases they have less. That is not the only reason because there are 81 members now and I'll bet there are 81 different reasons why they build a model and not a full size Waco.

Most people think I'm crazy to think or want to build a full size Waco. I had to do a Gone with the Wind sell job to convince some people that I could succeed at this project. If I had a dollar for every person who told me to build something way smaller and easier I could afford a new YMF Super. Building a full scale biplane is a monumental task. I grew up watching my dad build one in our living room. I know better than most what it will take. You must have a fire inside you hot enough to last the 3 to 5 years it will take. Yes, I like Skybolts and Pitts model 12's and numerous other models but I am absolutely crazy (certifiably) about the UPF-7. I am just crazy enough to want one so bad that I will dedicate up to 5 years to build one. I don't know that my fire would burn hot enough to build something different.

A lot of the guys on the full scale site have never worked on their Waco's. They are just more fortunate financially than we all are and they can afford an extra hundred or in the case of a brand new Classic YMF-5 Super an extra $300K. I wish I was that fortunate. I am certainly not trying to say anything bad about full scale Waco owners. That would be stupid of me since the path that you helped me get on is the one to become a full size Waco owner. I am sure that there are owners just like me. They did not have the money but had an ability to build or rebuild a real full scale Waco. To be totally honest with you, I have enough money to buy steel tubing, wood and fabric. I have worked in the finish side of commercial construction since I was a little kid. That taught me the art of creating things out of steel, wood, fabric and a multitude of other raw materials. I am not quite sure where I am going to get the money to buy a fresh L-5 Jake and a nice shiny prop. That's going to be almost $40K but I have some ideas and being over 50 my kids have grown and I can cheat my IRA/401K for the next few years. Sell some of my other toys and Bingo Bango Bongo, I'll be back in a zoom bag before you know it.

I continue to come back to this site on a daily basis. Why do you think my user name is first on the list of members who are logged on? If I felt as poorly about model builders and the info being traded on this thread as you have described I would not be here. I would be on the NWC forum. If you think about it there are really only two differences between your Waco and mine; yours is a YMF and mine is a ZPF. Yours has a 6 foot wingspan and mine has a 30 foot wingspan. I apologize for speaking for you. I actually thought that you were as crazy about these beautiful airplanes as I was. Why is it not OK to be crazy about something so beautiful?

I mentioned the new Waco forum versus the old forum so you and anyone else who might be interested would know that the old site was broken and being replaced with a new one. I think they are going to transfer all of the great information onto the new site in the near future. I also made sure to comment that you can not get into the new forum from the links on the Home page. They go to the old forum. I know that and know how to access the new forum. From the many comments that I have read, alot of people do not know that. I let everyone know the info because being a part of both forums is twice as good as only being a part of one. I think you would be surprised how many full size Waco owners would love to build a Pica Kit.

Ben
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 3:46 PM   
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That is probably one of the most well thought-out posts that I have read in a while. It is not crazy to pursue your dream, nor build a model of your dream. I suggested your looking at some other threads in the different forums to illustrate the mutual respect and assistance that this thread enjoys. More often than not the guys who post in the other threads are at each other's throats. We don't have that in this one.

I too would love to be able to build and fly a full scale Waco. That won't happen, since I can no longer meet the physical requirements. I don't have the space any longer to build it either (there are some down sides to moving to Paradise).

As to the statement that some owners of the full scale Waco never working on their planes, you will find that in any aspect of any hobby or any other facet of their lives. I used to race boats competively. There is a sport for the rich boys to enjoy. I would be up to my elbows in the engine, or have a V-Drive scattered all over the tailgate of my truck, and some yahoo rich boy owner, would come by and ask why I was actually working on my own boat. You wanted to crack him over the head with a wrench (except you might hurt your wrench).

As to the NWC website having a problem with the old place, Both clubs got whacked at about the same time. The NWC site is back up and running, but it is not as easy to access as was the old site. The American Waco Owners Club got whacked at about the same time, and is not yet up and running. Seems like some yahoo's get their peverse pleasures by denying others to have a site to enjoy.

Sorry your took what I said the wrong way. We formed the Brotherhood so that we could more easily have a conduit by which to pass information along, and to ensure that this information would stay in the hands of the hobbyist. We have had people along the way, who wanted to use the Brotherhood to start a commercial venture. These guys don't usually last very long in here. The Waco that most of us build now belongs to the ages. The AMA owns the plans and the parts templates. The manual/s are now there as well. The latter two items (templates and manuals) are due to the efforts of the Brotherhood. We are fairly well recognized within the scale community (which ain't bad for a new group), and the T-shirts make us recognizable as well. I normally wear mine to places where large groups of people congregate. I was asked the last time at Disney, if the shirt was from the Waco Brotherhood on RCU. It really made me feel good that an outsider recognized us for what we are.

Again, If I offended you with any remark that I might have made, please accept my apology. I often have a habit of asking for flank speed on my fingers, prior to engaging my brain.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 4:42 PM   
cheechukranch


 

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I've purchased plans for the 1/5 Pica Waco from the AMA and am looking forward to a winter project. A friend told me that parts templates were posted in this thread. Well, you guys are up to 181 pages! Could one of the brothers please direct me to the pages that contain this data?

Thanks very much...and keep up the good work.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 5:14 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cheechukranch

Greetings:

I've purchased plans for the 1/5 Pica Waco from the AMA and am looking forward to a winter project. A friend told me that parts templates were posted in this thread. Well, you guys are up to 181 pages! Could one of the brothers please direct me to the pages that contain this data?

Thanks very much...and keep up the good work.


If you purchased the plans from the AMA, they are supposed to come with the parts templates. If you did not receive them, please contact the plans department at AMA headquarters in Muncie Indiana. These were a gift from the Waco Brotherhood to them.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:16 PM   
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John told me I should pose this question to you. I am building a 1/4 scale Waco ( classic) from pepino plans. After bulding the entire airframe i decided I would like to model it after the HD-UPZ (super). There is a slight difference in the fuselage length and the height of the landing gear. How would this score in competition? Would points be deducted or would the model be disqualified because of the differences? I don't have a strong intention on competing, but I would like to know. Thanks
Scott


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 7:56 PM   
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Welcome to the thread. As Bill stated, the templates should come with the plans as the fourth page. You can also go to the House of Moy http://www.houseofmoy.com/waco/ and view the plans and templates there. There are also downloadable copies of the instruction manuals (the short version has most of the updates that the Brotherhood has developed, the long version is more detailed in the step by step) that will assist you in the build.

Ask to join the Waco Brotherhood if you haven't done so already, Bill will assign you a number that you can use in your signature. As you have found out there is a lot of information on this thread and on the Pepino, Barth and Genisis threads as well. There is info on the YMF and other Wacos over on the RC Scalebuilder forum also.

PS. Give us a short name to call you by. "cheechukranch" is a mouthful and I'm not sure I could pronounce it properly .

< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 11/24/2007 8:02 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 8:36 PM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: mango12

Bill,
John told me I should pose this question to you. I am building a 1/4 scale Waco ( classic) from pepino plans. After bulding the entire airframe i decided I would like to model it after the HD-UPZ (super). There is a slight difference in the fuselage length and the height of the landing gear. How would this score in competition? Would points be deducted or would the model be disqualified because of the differences? I don't have a strong intention on competing, but I would like to know. Thanks
Scott


If you have the proper documentation (published 3 views, photographs etc) and build your model to those documented specs, there is no reason that you would not point well in static judging. You are not in competition with anyone but yourself. You can take a plane that no one remembers, come up with the documentation, build to that documentation, and if it flies within the scale envelope, you could win with it.

You noticed that I stated more than once to find the documentation, and build to it. The worst thing that anyone ever does in scale competition, is to try to make the documentation match a built plane. It won't work. There are too many subtleties to ever find documentation that matches a model. Also, if you produce the published 3 views, and build to that documentation, and come up with a photograph that shows a detail that you incorporated in your model, but the photo shows something different on another part of the plane that is on your 3 view, the photographic documentation will take precedence over the drawing.

It is pretty simple, but it's complicated at the same time. Don't try to outsmart yourself. It happens every year to a contender at the top scale contests. Beautiful models, rotten documentation.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 9:16 PM   
mango12


 

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Status: offline 		So if the model is actually 1&1/2 inches shorter than what it should be, I wouldn't be marked of for it? Wouldn't the documentation and specs dictate that the model is incorrect, or are you saying that as long as the model represents the full scale accuratly, that the slight discrepency woul not be significant to the judge? The reason I ask all of this is there is rumor that the District V jamboree is going to be at our new field this coming year, and I thought about competing .
Scott

< Message edited by mango12 -- 11/24/2007 11:38 PM >


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2007 11:52 PM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: mango12

So if the model is actually 1&1/2 inches than what it should be, I wouldn't be marked of for it? Wouldn't the documentation and specs dictate that the model is incorrect, or are you saying that as long as the model represents the full scale accuratly, that the slight discrepency woul not be significant to the judge? The reason I ask all of this is there is rumor that the District V jamboree is going to be at our new field this coming year, and I thought about competing .
Scott

I have no idea of the caliber of the judges that will be working that event. I am saying that in Scale Contests of a National, International or High level Invitational level. The Outline Judge will look and compare your model against the documentation that you provide. If the model misses the outline, he will normally pick up on it. There were top level airplanes that had a slight angle wrong, and the Judge nailed it. If your model is 1 1/2" shorter than it should be, chances are he will see that as well. Why not correct the shortcoming prior to finishing the model? That Is a tremendous amount to be off on a 1/4 scale model. Where is the short length located? I suppose that if it is on a part of the model that has a reasonably long moment, you might not get tagged for it. If, however, it is on a section with a short moment, you can bet that it will be quickly picked up. If you lose 1/4 point in static, you can normally make that up in either craftsmanship, or in flying. If you lose one full (or more) point in static, it becomes very difficult to overcome. Once again.....Build the model to match the documentation. You can't get the documentation to match the model.
The Judging that I do is far removed from what you will find at a District Jamboree. As I said, it all depends on who is the Judge. If they use old Henry from one of the local clubs, he may not have ever judged an event before. If you go to the ScaleMasters or something like that, you will be facing Judges who know what to look for. We will ask you to orient your model to match one of the 3 views (Profile, Head On, and Top and/or Bottom). We will hold the three view up so that the profile matches the model. We start a a given point (I start at the point of the spinner, or prop hub, and work around the model along the bottom, up the rudder, and along the top of the model ending back at the prop hub/spinner. Next, I will ask you to orient the model to a head-on profile. I will ask you to either elevate the tail or lower the tail until the profile matches the 3 view. Again I will look at the entire perimiter of the model, paying close attention to transition points, as well as the dihedral, and wing thickness, also looking closely at root fairings, scale exhaust, landing gear angles, and any external store rails or mounts. Next I will ask you to present the top of the model to me, and continue to compare the model to your 3 view. I may ask you to present the bottom of the model if you provided me with a split top view (half shows the top and half shows the bottom). Next I will ask you to return you model to the profile view, where I will look for landing gear rakes, tail wheel position, and design, or nose gear rake and oleo scissors, with any accessories that should be on the model (per your 3 view)
Next, I look at all antenna, fuel fills (if applicable) and all other items that are mounted to the airframe. I do not look at any engine protrusions (spark plugs, plug wire, or cut-outs for cooling the actual flight engine). I do not look at the flying muffler either. I will ask you to show me your flying propellor, and spinner if used. You should bring them to the judges table with you. All this is completed in 15 minutes, and I fill out your Judging sheet, highlighting any area that caused a downgrade. I take many notes on the judging sheet, and you should always ask for a copy at the scorekeepers tent. These are useful to correct anything so that you may point better at the next event you attend.

Again, this probably not what you will see at a local event. It is what you see at an event such as Top Gun. Hope it helps.

Bill, AMA 4720
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< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 11/25/2007 3:32 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 12:17 AM   
mango12


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Bill, that satisfies my curiosity just fine. To compete at that level I would have to start at the very beginning, redraw the plans, landing gear, etc. Maybe somewhere down the line and a few more models under my belt, I'll attempt something like that. As you said, this one I am building for me. Thanks
Scott


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 12:38 AM   
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May I suggest that you enter the competition with your model. Do the best you can to match your model to the documentation, drawings and photos that you have. We all have to start somewhere and competition will teach you what you need to know. You may not win, but you will gain valuable experience for the next time and model. As Bill said, ask for a copy of the judging sheets and read the notes the judges may have added. After the judging is over, talk with the officials and ask for their opinion on how to improve either your documentation package, model or flight performance. One of the members on here did enter his Waco a couple of months ago and learned a great deal. Ever if you don't win, consider it a learning experience. Good Luck.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 1:28 AM   
mango12


 

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Status: offline 		John, thanks for the advice. The Jamboree probably will not be until the summer, so maybe I will have it finished by then . Armed with all of the information I have gained from this thread, who knows. We may have a ton of Wacos at Top Gun one day !!!!
Scott


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 1:50 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: mango12

John, thanks for the advice. The Jamboree probably will not be until the summer, so maybe I will have it finished by then . Armed with all of the information I have gained from this thread, who knows. We may have a ton of Wacos at Top Gun one day !!!!
Scott


I'm going to take a little risk here, even though I'm sure that Bob won't mind. This year (2007) Bob Gonzalez was invited to bring his WACO YMF to Top Gun. Bob's 33% Waco had some issues that counted against him. He still won the award for Best Civilian Biplane. I don't know how many times Bob has entered competition. I do know that it is a High Honor to be invited to Top Gun. Bob did very well in this competition. Photos of his Red Waco are here in this thread (back quite a ways). I'm sure that Bob would echo what I said about it being an honor to be invited.

It was a greater honor to have such men bring their best for me to Judge. I am humbled by the experience each time I do it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 3:45 AM   
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To echo what John said, Please take the time to stop by the Judges table when they are finished with their Judging. The reason that I say when they are finished is that we only get 15 minutes per plane, and that time goes by very quickly. We are not snobs by any stretch of the imagination, we are just flat busy. We have 2 regular members on our team (Team Scale) and that is Rich Uravitch and myself. We have a color Judge at all times, we just don't have a regular Color member at present, so we use the Color Judge from another team who is not Judging at the same time as we. Hopefully, we will get a regular this next year. Color Judging is difficult at best, and nerve wracking at worst. If we goof, the entire contest suffers. One misjudgment can skew the entire event. And the Big Boys are not immune from making mistakes with their planes. The beautiful M-20 Porsche Mooney had a flaw in that the builder mistakenly reused the stencil for the N-number that was correct for the right side of the model, on the left side as well. His documentation showed the error, but he missed it. Otherwise it would have pointed at least 98. Instead he got a 97.75. Just out of winning. Things like that are tough to have to stomach. He did it, and there is no one else to blame. He took it like a man though, and you can bet it will be better than ever next year.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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       Post #: 4570

RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 5:25 AM   
damifino



Posts: 675
Score: 100
Joined: 7/13/2003
Last Login: 8/11/2012
From: Winston Salem, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Got my YMF cowling from Brad at Stan's Aerofibertech today. Nice piece! To echo what Stickbuilder said recently; a few weeks ago a correct 1/5 scale YMF cowling was not and had not been available for purchase. Thanks go out Stickbuilder for supplying me with an original PICA cowl and blisters and to Brad for producing the parts from my plug. I'm very happy with the results of the effort.

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Everybody knows you can''t make a time machine out of a Tilt-A-Whirl.........-:WACO Brotherhood 25:-

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(in reply to Stickbuilder)
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 5:40 AM   
Stickbuilder



Posts: 8432
Score: 346
Joined: 11/20/2005
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Jay,

This is one thing that no thanks are required for. I'm just happy that we now have a correct cowl that we can order for the first time. Using the cowl for the UMF and calling it a YMF is kind of like being named Smith, and passing yourself off as a Jones.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 7:07 AM   
msilvestro


 

Posts: 5
Score: 100
Joined: 3/16/2006
Last Login: 7/8/2008
From: Andover, MA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello,
I would like to join the Waco brotherhood. I just placed my order for a Genesis Waco kit.

Regards
Mark

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1/3 Scale Super Cub, Soon to be Waco owner
WACO Brotherhood #81

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(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 4573

RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 7:17 AM   
Stickbuilder



Posts: 8432
Score: 346
Joined: 11/20/2005
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: msilvestro

Hello,
I would like to join the Waco brotherhood. I just placed my order for a Genesis Waco kit.

Regards
Mark


Mark,

Welcome to the Waco Brotherhood. If you will look back on page 180, you will find the current roster. You are Brother #81. Wow, a Genesis Kit and the Moki Radial. That's definately a committment. Best of luck, and we all look forward to watching the build. Be sure to post pictures as you go.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2007 8:04 AM   
aminiet



Posts: 336
Score: 115
Joined: 12/7/2004
Last Login: 6/14/2013
From: humble, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Got this silly question here I have been itching to ask. Of all the pictures I see at the National Waco Club, Which is my only source for pictures other than what is posted here, I don't see a pitot static tube.
So the question is, What does the Waco use for air speed indication?

Angel
B 58

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SO MANY WACOS, SO LITTLE TIME.......

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(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 4575

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