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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 2:06 AM   
Skinny Bob



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ORIGINAL: SuperCub Man

What is the preferred method of attaching the F/G cowls to the fuse? I would use aluminum "L" brackets and with other aircraft I have F/G'd the "L" bracket to the cowl and used long hex drivers to access the screws to attach it to the fuse. This has not always been successful nor easy to accomplish. Other than that I could run screws through the cowl and into the already attached "L" brackets, but then unsightly screw heads would show on my soon-to-be pristine cowl! I'd appreciate any suggestions. Stickbuilder, how did you attach that gorgeous cowl you have labored on for so long? No screw heads showing on that I'll bet

Have you looked at the plywood cowl ring, Great Planes uses them on some of their ( sorry to use this, ARF's ) I have two and it seems to work pretty well. However it is sometimes difficult to access the socket head cap screws through the front of the cowl. A extra long ball end allen wrench is the tool used.


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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 2:36 AM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: SuperCub Man

What is the preferred method of attaching the F/G cowls to the fuse? I would use aluminum "L" brackets and with other aircraft I have F/G'd the "L" bracket to the cowl and used long hex drivers to access the screws to attach it to the fuse. This has not always been successful nor easy to accomplish. Other than that I could run screws through the cowl and into the already attached "L" brackets, but then unsightly screw heads would show on my soon-to-be pristine cowl! I'd appreciate any suggestions. Stickbuilder, how did you attach that gorgeous cowl you have labored on for so long? No screw heads showing on that I'll bet


You lose. With the engine that I am using, I had to mount it with external screws. The trick is to use small screws, and then camoflouge them so that they are not that noticable. The full scale has some fastners and rivets etc on the cowl, so they are not all that much out of place. With the G-26 I would only have been able to attach the cowl for about 270 degrees of the cowl diameter, and that was not an acceptable amount of support for me.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 2:48 AM   
timothy thompson


 

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 3:05 AM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: timothy thompson

hey buy an arf just kidding

Hey, yourself....Go sell that idea to your neighbor Dick Watz. Good luck with that one.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 3:13 AM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Thanks Bill - that makes it easy for me! I'm also using the Zenoah. I had F/G'd these brackets to the inside of the cowl on my 1/4 scale Skybolt and it worked for a while. It was installed with a long shaft allen wrench (as Skinny Bob suggested), but the odd wack on the cowl eventually loosened them up. I re-epoxied them in a few times over the years, but finally a radio failure wrote fini to the Skybolt thus solving the problem!
When I get my cowl from our friend Brad, (shortly) I will take another look at it. I fear that using the plywood ring ala Great Planes would compromise some of my cooling. But I built the GP Super Stearman for a friend and it works well for him - and he also used a Zenoah 26. Thanks for the help

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 4:41 AM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Bill - Further to the adjustable cabanes - it appears that only the rear cabane is adjustable - is that correct? I presume the adjustments will be so slight - if set up reasonably close to the correct incidence - that the front cabane strut joints will be able to take the slight movement created by adjusting the rear ones? (I think that's clear?)

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 6:33 AM   
khodges


 

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ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

With the G-26 I would only have been able to attach the cowl for about 270 degrees of the cowl diameter, and that was not an acceptable amount of support for me.




I was worried about that initially, on my A-R-F, but mine has been surprisingly solid. I had to cut the ring from about 4 o'clock around to about 10 o'clock, which removed two of the six mounting screws (at the 6 o'clock and 8 o'clock spots). The dummy engine and the mounting ring itself make the cowl stiff enough that it doesn't flex much.

Just got back from our monthly club meeting. We had one of the better turnouts in a long time, about 30 or so of our 68 members. We've got a neighbor (she has only lived near the field about two years) who is circulating a petition trying to get our field closed. Claims we fly over her house all the time; there might be a rare instance, and those should not happen, as she is over 100 yards from the end of our runway, and is in a "No-Fly" zone which is clearly noted by posted signs. We can't use that part of the runway due to trees there, and normally the closest we ever get to her house is about 200 yards. We've been working to stay further away, as she has been complaining over a year, on and off, but she is the ONLY neighbor that complains, out of about twenty who have lived there over 30 years (our club has flown there since 1968). Given what it takes to lose a flying site these days, we're worried, but our other neighbors have supported us for a long time and we hope that they will stand by us.

I got voted Prez. of the club. Please, no applause , it was sort of a shotgun wedding. Nobody else wanted it.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 7:13 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Your signature - Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?
The answer - I got voted Prez. of the club.

'nuff said



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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 10:48 AM   
old git


 

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ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Ken,

Your signature - Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?
The answer - I got voted Prez. of the club.

'nuff said




I've been totally engrossed by this thread for the best part of two years and there has been enough evidence for me to think that any organisation can only benefit from the active participation of Ken, Yourself, stickbuilder and a few others. Congrats all around are in order.


Waco Brotherhood No. 14.
old git - - - - - aka John L.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 12:01 PM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: old git


quote:

ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Ken,

Your signature - Club Saito #2, WACO Brotherhood #20. What other trouble can I get into?
The answer - I got voted Prez. of the club.

'nuff said




I've been totally engrossed by this thread for the best part of two years and there has been enough evidence for me to think that any organisation can only benefit from the active participation of Ken, Yourself, stickbuilder and a few others. Congrats all around are in order.


Waco Brotherhood No. 14.
old git - - - - - aka John L.



John L,

You may add your name to those of distinction as well. You have been a positive motivator in this thread as well. We have close to 100 members of the Brotherhood now, and as far as I'm concerned, there is not a stinker in the bunch.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 12:09 PM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: SuperCub Man

Bill - Further to the adjustable cabanes - it appears that only the rear cabane is adjustable - is that correct? I presume the adjustments will be so slight - if set up reasonably close to the correct incidence - that the front cabane strut joints will be able to take the slight movement created by adjusting the rear ones? (I think that's clear?)


Jim. Both front and rear cabanes will have the ability to adjust. I do think that once the top wing is square with the rest of the model, then only one pair (either front or rear) should be touched to change the incidence. It looks as though I will be able to adjust the incidence in 30 minute increments. That should allow a reasonably close tolerence for adjustment.

I would be cautious about allowing the front cabane mount to be in a torsional stress situation. I suppose that it would depend upon the material that you had chosen to manufacture the hardware from. I'm not going to use any unobtanium in making my hardware, and I won't leave my cabanes in a bound up situation. It's going to allow everything to be straight, and true (for a change) Remember, the cabanes will work in concert with the interplanes on mine, so I will be able to fine tune the incidence along the entire wing/s.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 5:42 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Bill, SCM and the rest,

Realizing that our models are experimental aircraft and the need for adjustability may be required to fine tune the flight characteristics, here are a few shots of the full size Waco cabane and interplane struts.

P1 1987 YMF Classic NC 14081, Cabane struts, note the fixed mounting points and welded joints. Also note the plumbing for the fuel tanks

P2 1987 YMF Classic NC 14081, Interplane struts. The center strut is fixed in length, the forward strut is adjustable at the bottom and the rear strut is adjustable at the top. Joints are flexible. See TRLambsrs photos posted by Bill in post 4787, page 192, very similar (bolt and nut replaces clevis pin on full size)

P3 1942 UPF-7, NC 39748, Joe (Waco Joe, pilot) and Ken (khodges) get ready to fly. Note the additional horizontal strut between the front and rear cabane struts at the fuselage. Interplane struts are similar to the YMF.

P4 1940 QCF, NC 12428, is being rigged. Center interplane strut has been installed. Cabane wires and one main wire installed with lots more to do. Note cover removed at the base of the forward cabane struts for rigging and adjustment and the fuselage has been leveled for rigging.



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< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 12/14/2007 5:44 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 6:54 PM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Thanks for that John - great details. But you know the more I play with these @^&#$@&$ cabanes, and trying to get them set to the right length and cutting and soldering the 5/32 steel wire, (remember I'm scratch building!) the more I think it would be easier to cut off the installed cabane wires and replace them with bolt-on cabanes as on the GP Stearman. The advantage is that with the bottom wing installed, you could jig up the top wing into exact position and incidence and then cut the cabanes to fit. Hardwood run throught the fuse from side to side would act as anchor points for the fuse/cabane screws, or blind nuts in reinforced plywood inside the fuse would also serve. The cabanes together with the interplane struts would hold the top wing in position quite well. This is the scale installation and works quite well with the GP model. It's something to think about! The jig could consist of two supports of an "N Strut" configuration with the top and bottom shaped to fit the top and bottom airfoil of the wing. One would be positioned and tacked to each side of the fuse and sitting on the bottom wing it would hold the top wing in firm position while cabanes and struts were cut and fitted. The jig would be made right off the plans assuring correct incidence and position relative to the bottom wing. If on top of that an adjusting screw was added to the rear cabane strut and interplane strut, all kinds of versatility would be possible along with easy removal of the cabanes for other work.
Just thinking out loud!! Any thots!!

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/14/2007 11:24 PM   
RICKSTUBBZ



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperCub Man

What is the preferred method of attaching the F/G cowls to the fuse? I would use aluminum "L" brackets and with other aircraft I have F/G'd the "L" bracket to the cowl and used long hex drivers to access the screws to attach it to the fuse. This has not always been successful nor easy to accomplish. Other than that I could run screws through the cowl and into the already attached "L" brackets, but then unsightly screw heads would show on my soon-to-be pristine cowl! I'd appreciate any suggestions. Stickbuilder, how did you attach that gorgeous cowl you have labored on for so long? No screw heads showing on that I'll bet


Jim (SCM),
Here is a thought on a way to mount the fiberglass cowl. Not necessarily the easiest way to do this. But it should work out to be quite solid and reasonable easy to use. Not to mention it will work as a baffle to force air across the cylinder/head fins. The sketch is somewhat to scale but I have no idea what the dimensions of your engine are.

My sketch represents an approximate shape for thin plywood. There are four circles located around the center 90° from each other and skewed 45°. These four circles represent standoffs coming from the firewall.

One could fiberglass this ring into the cowl as you have done with the “L” brackets in the past. Locating it somewhere just in front of the center line of the G26's cylinder. Using standoffs, mount this ring/plate to hold proper distance from the firewall based on the plates exact location within the cowl.

There are quite a few options for which way to go with hardware. Just an idea and quick sketch.


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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 12:59 AM   
WacoJoe


 

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ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

P3 1942 UPF-7, NC 39748, Joe (Waco Joe, pilot) and Ken (khodges) get ready to fly. Note the additional horizontal strut between the front and rear cabane struts at the fuselage. Interplane struts are similar to the YMF.



Just for general info, the UPF-7 didn't originally have the horizontal brace at the base of the cabane struts. This was required by an Airworthiness Directive after a number of early UPF-7s developed cracks in the upper longerons due to the rigors of pilot training. The brace was required for aircraft up to a certain serial number. Actually, my airplane doesn't require them, but they're there anyway. You'll see some UPFs with the horizontal brace and some without. There is an alternate method of reinforcing the structure of the early fuselage that will eliminate the brace, and the late serial numbers don't require it, so a model that didn't have this brace would be correct.

Cheers!

Joe
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 1:11 AM   
RICKSTUBBZ



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Status: offline 		Jim Henley,
How's the repairs/mods coming on your WACO. The last I remember you had her cut open adding the spring mod to your landing gear.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 1:23 AM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Thanks Rick - I like that idea - especially, as you suggest, it will act as a baffle to cool the motor. This pix shows my front end and I can adapt brackets for whatever I need to position the ply and cowl properly. I get my cowl next week as Brad has advised that it is shipped!! So I can better see how things fit. I like the idea of no bolts through the cowl. The second pix shows my homemade cowl on my late Skybolt. No bolts there either! No plane either

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 3:21 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		Rick,
I have the hole covered up, the balsa on the gear fairings and as soon as I get things sanded smooth will be ready to put some fiberglass on the repaired area. Been waiting to get the glass on to post some pictures, maybe this weekend. Snow and freezing weather are in the forcast so there will be no outside activities on my schedule.


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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 5:42 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Rick,
I have the hole covered up, the balsa on the gear fairings and as soon as I get things sanded smooth will be ready to put some fiberglass on the repaired area. Been waiting to get the glass on to post some pictures, maybe this weekend. Snow and freezing weather are in the forcast so there will be no outside activities on my schedule.



Snow? Snow? Oh yeah, that's the white stuff that you guys get on the ground. We have white stuff on the ground here in Florida. It's called Sand. It was 83 degrees here today, and I just came inside at 9:20 pm, and it's still 78 degrees. Wearing Shorts and a Tee shirt on my screen porch. Sorry about the cold and snow.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps: We actually do have 4 seasons here.....Almost summer, Summer, Still like Summer, and just plain Nice.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 5:51 AM   
aminiet



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Status: offline 		Hoston was about 75 deg today, our seasons are Hot and humid, Stinking hot and humid, Miserable hot and humid and freezing my empenage the last week in December

Angel
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 7:41 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Thanks Joe.

All 7 of the UPFs that were at the AWC 2007 Fly In had the brace like yours.

Jim,

We are in the same boat you are in the St Louis area with snow (heaviest snowfall in a while) predicted followed by sleet and more snow. Locking the doors, staying inside and cutting some parts (after I get the work bench cleared off and back together)

Rick,

Ditto what SCM said, I like the cowl mount/baffle/dummy engine mount idea. Will have to keep it in mind.

< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 12/15/2007 7:42 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 2:49 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		I'm at it again. I tore into the tail surfaces last night, and re-cut all the edges. I am in the process of rebuilding all of them with tubing for the edges. I got tired of never seeing a leading or trailing edge that looks right. So, here I go again. Somebody Stop ME! At this rate, this will be the worlds smallest Scale YMF ever built. There's gotta be a stopping place, I just don't have it in sight yet.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 3:33 PM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		John,
Yes, we lived in Ballwin for 7 years having moved there from Phonenix, AZ. We went from, as Angel said, Hot, Oh So Hot, Too Hot, Too Too Hot, to Snow, Hot and Humid, and Snow. Omaha is much like St Louis, not quite as humid, but here the wind never stops blowing. If you are going to fly here you have to learn to fly in the wind!
Hope to get some photos posted this weekend, I have all the repair done just need to fiberglass the bottom of the fuse where I cut into it and the landing gear fairings. The wing damage is repaird and in primer, hopefully I can blend the repair into the original paint then all I have left is to clear coat, which will propbaly have to wait until it warms up some.
Rick,
I too am liking your idea of the cowl mount/baffle/dummy engine mount and will keep that in mind for the next one.

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 3:33 PM   
lazyace


 

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Status: offline 		well brothers we are geting 12 to 18" of that white stuff here in the miami of the north [buffalo ny] so don't feel bad .

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RE: WACO YMF - 12/15/2007 3:49 PM   
Stickbuilder



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ORIGINAL: lazyace

well brothers we are geting 12 to 18" of that white stuff here in the miami of the north [buffalo ny] so don't feel bad .


Surely, you are referring to Miami, as in Miami Ohio, right??????? Now with what is going on in the Frozen Nawth, Anybody wanna tell me about Global Warming again? I got up at 0400 this morning (as per usual) and it was 72 degrees outside. Started to put on sweat pants for the chill, but decided what the heck, and went with shorts (again). It's great to be alive and living in Florida. Y'all Come (but don't plan to stay.....We are full).

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps.....did anyone notice that we passed 180,000 hits last night? And 4900 posts. Soon to be at 200+ pages. Whoodathunkit?

< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 12/15/2007 3:52 PM >

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