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RE: WACO YMF - 3/7/2010 5:59 PM   
davidgeorge212



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From: Trussville, AL, USA
Status: offline 		I just picked one up at perry this weekend and thats about what I payed for it It is the one with the blue and cream colored waco on it. I payed a little more actually but thats because he threw in an aftermarket fiberglass cowl and a wheel pants. Im not in to buying and selling kits or anything but I do love building and everyone seems to like the pica. I am happy that I found one and cant wait to build it.

Oh and I did find the websight where you posted the plans up on pdf for the 1/5 and 1/6 scale which look pretty nice. I might use those plans and keep the kit in tact. maybe maybe not.

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/7/2010 6:36 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		David,

The house of Moy site http://www.houseofmoy.com/waco/ plans are good to have as reference. The 1/5th plans on the HoM site are the older 3 page plan set (no date) and have some templates and stuff that were left off the newer plans (1990) that the AMA has. The newer plans are 2 pages and have the tail wheel located in the scale location.

You can download the plans and take them to Kinko’s or similar, get them printed out (check dimensions) and end up paying about what you would if you order the plan set (#35406) and templates (be sure to ask for them) from the AMA. The bonus with the AMA is that you don’t have to run around going to the store, wasting gas and time, they get delivered right to your door.


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/7/2010 7:40 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		George,

I have the same plans in my flies and I think they were based on the Paul Matt drawings. The first thing I noticed was the use of a lot of pine blocks in the construction and the use of a built up box spar (which I like). Laminated wing tip, stab, vertical fin and rudder outlines are also nice. Some weight can be saved by careful examination of the construction.

Suggest getting a copy of the Nicholas Karstens UPF-7 drawings form the Bob Banka site http://www.bobsairdoc.com/ . The 3 view is S-6 2821 Waco UPF-7. I think they are just a bit more accurate than the PM drawings and use them to modify the fuselage formers and other things.

There are some minor problems in the fuselage cross sections that can be easily corrected using the NK drawings to modify the fuselage formers. The fuselage is kind of weird in that just before the vertical fin it becomes almost square and ends up with the horizontal stab almost sitting on top of the fuse. From the side the fuselage looks a little sway backed compared to the YMF IMHO.

The wings do not show the sheeting around the wing tip, neither do the PM drawings. The wing tips from the forward view are pretty good but could be raised about 3/32” from what is shown on the plans. The plans also show the military notch in the top wing which is the most common version, but there are a few with the shallow curve notch over the forward cockpit (civilian version). Just as a reminder, the top wing is flat (no dihedral) and the bottom wing has 2° on each side. The lower wing incidence is confusing on the Jerry B plans.

The horizontal stab and vertical fin/rudder are quite thick compared to the YMF and the cross sections are not shown on the plans. The NK drawings show the cross sections as a separate drawing, the PM show the cross section on the fuse side view.

The landing gear is close but not scale. I believe JB built this as a sport scale plane and not as a scale competitor.

You might also get some photos from Bob Banka or I have photos of about 10 different UPF with detail shots. PM me for more info on my photos.


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 4:59 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: georgewaldrop

Bill,

I have a question about some plans I have. I have been trying to find one of the 1/5 kits and they are just a bit beyond what I want to spend right now, and I may go ahead and get the plans for it from AMA, but in the meantime, I have a set of plans for a UPF drawn by Jerry Behrens. They look ok, but don't look quite right to me. I am not proficient in the scale outlines like you and some of the others here, so I was wondering if anyone here might have checked them out in the past. These are 90'' WS I think. Thanks in advance!



George,

Up until now, I don't think that there have been any accurate plans or drawings for any Waco, other than some that were languishing in someone's desk. That's all changing, and pretty soon, I believe that there will be a few viable Scale plans available.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 5:06 AM   
davidgeorge212



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Status: offline 		What was the main difference between the blue and cream kit and the red and white kit
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


quote:

ORIGINAL: davidgeorge212

That depends. Are you talking about the box with the Blue and Cream Waco, or the box with the Red and white Waco?

Bill, Waco Brother #1



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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 6:30 AM   
Neil K


 

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Status: offline 		I believe the Blue and Yellow box is PRE 1990 and the White and Red Trim boxtop was 1990 and later. Not 100% certain on this though, Stickbuilder would know for sure but I think this may be close.

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 6:53 AM   
khodges


 

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Status: offline 		Here's the list of kits I have:

BUSA 1/4 Fokker D-VII I have two German Aces of Iron pilots (unpainted); your choice of either "Hans" or "Richt" goes with the kit. Both are discontinued. I'll take $275 for the plane and pilot. BUSA's price on the plane is $313.95

BUSA 1/4 Nieuport 11 BUSA price $211.95, I'll take $175

BUSA 1/4 J-3 BUSA price $180. I'll take $150 for it. I have the BUSA plans to build it as a L-4, and a discontinued dummy engine kit. I'll sell all of it for $170.

BUSA 1/4 SPAD XIII BUSA price $365. I have two Aces of Iron "Eddie"s, one painted and one unpainted, your choice (see painted one below) I also have a pair of BUSA Vickers gun kits (BUSA price, $22.25 ea.), and a set of DuBro scale wheels. All of it for $325.

FunAero 1/5 SE-5a $115, don't know the mfg price, I think it was around $150

Buyer pays shipping on all deals

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 7:15 AM   
georgewaldrop



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quote:

ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1
George,

I have the same plans in my flies and I think they were based on the Paul Matt drawings. The first thing I noticed was the use of a lot of pine blocks in the construction and the use of a built up box spar (which I like). Laminated wing tip, stab, vertical fin and rudder outlines are also nice. Some weight can be saved by careful examination of the construction.

Suggest getting a copy of the Nicholas Karstens UPF-7 drawings form the Bob Banka site http://www.bobsairdoc.com/ . The 3 view is S-6 2821 Waco UPF-7. I think they are just a bit more accurate than the PM drawings and use them to modify the fuselage formers and other things.

There are some minor problems in the fuselage cross sections that can be easily corrected using the NK drawings to modify the fuselage formers. The fuselage is kind of weird in that just before the vertical fin it becomes almost square and ends up with the horizontal stab almost sitting on top of the fuse. From the side the fuselage looks a little sway backed compared to the YMF IMHO.

The wings do not show the sheeting around the wing tip, neither do the PM drawings. The wing tips from the forward view are pretty good but could be raised about 3/32” from what is shown on the plans. The plans also show the military notch in the top wing which is the most common version, but there are a few with the shallow curve notch over the forward cockpit (civilian version). Just as a reminder, the top wing is flat (no dihedral) and the bottom wing has 2° on each side. The lower wing incidence is confusing on the Jerry B plans.

The horizontal stab and vertical fin/rudder are quite thick compared to the YMF and the cross sections are not shown on the plans. The NK drawings show the cross sections as a separate drawing, the PM show the cross section on the fuse side view.

The landing gear is close but not scale. I believe JB built this as a sport scale plane and not as a scale competitor.

You might also get some photos from Bob Banka or I have photos of about 10 different UPF with detail shots. PM me for more info on my photos.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
quote:

ORIGINAL: georgewaldrop
Bill,

I have a question about some plans I have. I have been trying to find one of the 1/5 kits and they are just a bit beyond what I want to spend right now, and I may go ahead and get the plans for it from AMA, but in the meantime, I have a set of plans for a UPF drawn by Jerry Behrens. They look ok, but don't look quite right to me. I am not proficient in the scale outlines like you and some of the others here, so I was wondering if anyone here might have checked them out in the past. These are 90'' WS I think. Thanks in advance!


George,

Up until now, I don't think that there have been any accurate plans or drawings for any Waco, other than some that were languishing in someone's desk. That's all changing, and pretty soon, I believe that there will be a few viable Scale plans available.

Bill, Waco Brother #1


John & Bill,

Thanks for the responses! This is what I like about the Brotherhood and this thread. I am not a competition level builder, never have been, and likely won't be for some time to come, but I am more interested in getting there than I have been in the past. That said, I appreciate the comments/cautions about the inconsistencies from scale of the various kits and plans sets out there. I love bipes and round engines, and I prefer giant scale modeling, so I have been looking for larger kits and/or plans for a YMF in particular and I like the UPF and YKS as well. I happened on these large scale UPF plans and decided to grab them while they were available. John, I will definitely be shooting you a PM regarding the pics you have available, and checking with Bob Banka for the more accurate 3-views you mention.

Bill, I am VERY interested in the accurate large scale plans you mention may be coming soon. I really appreciate all I have learned from so many of you guys here. I hope to do a really nice [sport] scale model and learn from the process, then maybe later build a viable competition model.

I have quite a few larger biplane plans/kits/projects to build, so I hope I can get a good start this summer/fall. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I returned to modeling after a 20+ yr departure only this past fall and have been sorting old projects and supplies I had rat holed and still had packed away. I am getting close to having most of it sorted out and back where I can work on my models without moving everything out first. My first project will be to finish some of the partially completed stuff in my shop or sell it to make room, and get funds, for more important projects. Among the projects I want to complete and keep, I have a partially framed StarDuster Too from the old RCKits (Bob Campbell) kit at 1/3.8 scale I believe (90+ inches) plus these Behrens plans for the 90" UPF, and hopefully the true scale YMF plans Bill mentioned...otherwise, probably the Pica 1/5th. Like many other modelers, I have more plans/kits in inventory than I will ever have time or money to complete, but I will never run out of nice planes to build!

Thanks again for the info guys, and Bill, please let me know when those more accurate Waco plans become available...John, expect a PM soon.


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 1:28 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neil K

I believe the Blue and Yellow box is PRE 1990 and the White and Red Trim boxtop was 1990 and later. Not 100% certain on this though, Stickbuilder would know for sure but I think this may be close.


The Blue/Yellow kit has an extra page of plans, with the sheeting templates, ABS Cowl parts, aileron sheeting (not correct) and fuel tank sheeting (also incorrect). The Red/White kit loses a page of plan, also has many ABS parts that the other kit does not have. I can't say about the dates for sure, but it is generally accepted that these dates are about right.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 10:41 PM   
mrdhud



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Status: online 		Hello all

Just getting over this nasty FL cold/flu and starting to feel better. I worked the FL Jet show Saturday they had two jets doing 3d flying even hovering that was a sight but the jets just don’t do it for me. I’m hoping to take my Waco out this week and do some taxiing around and see how well the tail wheel works I may even work the nerve up to let the tail wheel come up.
On another note I’ve been reading about vacuum molding table on the web and thinking about building one. They don’t look too complicated and would be pretty inexpensive to make. I was wondering if I could make the aileron skins out of plastic. Has any one tried this and do you think it would work? I haven’t found a source for the plastic yet but I’m sure it’s out there.

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/8/2010 11:47 PM   
FMBB


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Dan,

in my kit there are glass fiber ailerons with all the corugations. So this will work but you will need a mould to do so.

Peter

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 1:28 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMBB

Hi Dan,

in my kit there are glass fiber ailerons with all the corugations. So this will work but you will need a mould to do so.

Peter

Peter,

The Pica kits have the corrugated aileron covers too, but they don't have the correct corrugation spacing or count. These are the fifth scale (72" span models). You would probably have a ready market if you offered them in the correct size and spacing for these.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 1:39 AM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Dan-Have you tried getting the corregated plastic from Sig? They make (or did make) 3 styles with one that has very close spacing to scale. Perhaps they could be used for a mold!
Check out Page #151 - Post #3753 for full details. I used the 404A and was able to paste the little bit extra that was needed - on to the tips. Can't see them!! Good luck!

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 2:06 AM   
WacoNut



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Status: offline 		Jim,
I used the Sig on my 1/4 Pepino Waco and I believe I bought the last of the sheets that Sig had to offer as 2 weeks later another guy I know went to buy some and they were no longer available.
Anthony

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 7:26 AM   
SuperCub Man



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ORIGINAL: WacoNut

Jim,
I used the Sig on my 1/4 Pepino Waco and I believe I bought the last of the sheets that Sig had to offer as 2 weeks later another guy I know went to buy some and they were no longer available.
Anthony

Well that's a bummer!!

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 8:31 AM   
mrdhud



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Status: online 		I was thinking I would make another one out of aluminum to use for a mold. The ones I made for mine was a lot of time and work once there painted I don’t think you could tell the difference between the aluminum and plastic. I thought if it would work it would save a lot of time and be kind of fun too.

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 9:13 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		You could always cover the plastic with Flite-Metal for the aluminum look. Polish it up and they could be used on a model of UPF N 620AM. Yep, he polished his ailerons instead of painting them. See picture.

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/9/2010 4:18 PM   
mrdhud



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Status: online 		WOW they look good

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 1:31 AM   
FMBB


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Bill,

as I am getting older and older the models need to larger and larger so my eyes might be able to catch them in the sky. Fith scale is realy small and is only for younger guys with better eyes.

We are currnetly internally discussing to build an even larger Waco. This will be another long lasting project here in Germany beyond 25kg you have to be licenced to fly your ship and it will have to undergo some sort of a static strength test. With the current third scale we are deepending on the engine installed about 3 to 2 kg below 25 so a larger model would be for sure above that weight.
A nice engine would be already available for such a model of course the Moki 400ccm but even the 250 would do the job.

Peter


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 4:54 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: FMBB

Hi Bill,

as I am getting older and older the models need to larger and larger so my eyes might be able to catch them in the sky. Fith scale is realy small and is only for younger guys with better eyes.

We are currnetly internally discussing to build an even larger Waco. This will be another long lasting project here in Germany beyond 25kg you have to be licenced to fly your ship and it will have to undergo some sort of a static strength test. With the current third scale we are deepending on the engine installed about 3 to 2 kg below 25 so a larger model would be for sure above that weight.
A nice engine would be already available for such a model of course the Moki 400ccm but even the 250 would do the job.

Peter



Tell me about it. That's why I am working on the 27% version. This one will fill a void between the fifth scale and the third scale. I know that you offer the 25% but mine is being designed around the Zenoah GT 80 engine. It will hide inside the cowl and will spin a scale prop with authority.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 5:07 AM   
davidgeorge212



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Status: offline 		so on the house of moy website there are plans for the 1/6th and 1/5 scale waco, but was their ever plans for the 3/5 scale waco on a pdf file like the others?

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 9:08 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		If you are talking about a YMF-3 and YMF-5, they are one and the same except that the -5 has the larger vertical fin and rudder to help with a stability problem that the -3 had. Some say the -5 was finished a bit nicer in the cockpit, but I am not sure about that. Otherwise the -3 and -5 are pretty much identical. Most -3 were retro fitted with the larger surfaces either by the factory or by the owner/local mechanic.

The plans on the HoM site are for the early plans (pre 1990) and show an outline for a taller fin and rudder which would be correct for a UPF/ZPF but not for the YMF. The plans also indicate that various other Wacos could be built from the plans but that is not so as the fuselages are quite a bit different. The templates for building a cabin (enclosed rear cockpit) may be correct for a ZPF but of the photos I have seen there is one U/YMF that may have had the enclosure shown, the rest were apparently homemade and definitely different. See the National Waco site for photos.


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 1:31 PM   
aminiet



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Status: offline 		Otherwise the -3 and -5 are pretty much identical. Most -3 were retro fitted with the larger surfaces either by the factory or by the owner/local mechanic.

Bill. Question came to mind as soon as I read John's last post.
Since I have turned the Pica YMF-5 into a -3 simply by painting it with the Cuban colors, and the Paul Matt drawings are for a -5, What will judges do regarding this issue? will there be a penalty?

Angel

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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 7:50 PM   
gunner3


 

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Status: offline 		Hi all, I have a question about the ABS gas tank sheeting in the pica kit. Is the edge raised slightly or does it get sanded off so the sheeting lays flat on the center section. Also, does this addition add to the appearance of the model?  I know it's not scale.


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RE: WACO YMF - 3/10/2010 8:41 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		If I had the plastic tank sheet I would leave it off and replace it with a smooth sheet like 1/64" plywood and add glue drop rivets. To me it looks a bit tacky. The newer YMFs all incorporate the upper wing skin/tank cover into the same piece. Many of the older planes covered the tank area with fabric over some false ribs. The down side in doing that is you had to remove the covering to repair a tank leak and then replace it. With the hard cover, you can just unbolt it for access. Which way you go is up to you.

P1 - Tank Cover on 1987 YMF-5 NC 14081
P2 - Tank area on 1932 QCF-2 NC 12428

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