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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2006 5:46 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Evan,

I've thought about that as well, but most of the guys like to overpower the airframe, so that amount of reinforcement does not hurt at all. It also serves to tie the Cabane assembly and the Gear mounts together, for a stronger structure. Lighter is not always better, especially when you sacrifice strength for lightness. If we were flying electrics here, I would be inclined to agree with you, as I would if we all flew from paved runways, but most here will use at least a 120 4 stroke, and some will use gassers, and some of us even use twins, and most of us fly from runways that are not as smooth as they could be, from time to time. You are encouraged to chime in whenever you want though, I welcome any new ideas. I'm sure that everyone else does as well.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2006 5:50 PM   
old git


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Henley
- - - - - -The strut is 4-40 push rod, my concern is the rod is soft. Is there a way to temper the steel? - - - - - -
Any ideas, or suggestions welcome.
Jim


Hi Jim,

I would humbly suggest the the word temper is NOT the one you need. Temper is the term for reducing the hardness & brittleness of a hard steel. The method described by stickbuilder would be useful to increase the malleability (formability) of piano wire. The control rods you describe have probably not sufficient carbon to respond to heat treatment, they are probably as hard as they can be by the manufacturing process of cold drawing (cold working)

To heat treat a steel if it contains sufficient carbon, heating to cherry red and quenching in WATER will increase hardness.

To temper the steel (reduce hardness & brittleness) it is usually polished and then warmed until the oxide colour shows as very faint buff/brown, then quenching in water for thin material (such as wire) or in oil for a less severe quench.

Piano wire can be softened simply by heating to red heat and allowing to cool in air, it is then still stiff/hard enough (but softer) for most purposes other than landing gear. My guuess is that it would be OK for the tailwheel assembly. Piano wire softened in this manner will be much easier to form in tight radius bends.


I often used to carry out the heat treatment of steels by heating on a gas ring, using a waster plate of 1/16" steel on the gas ring and the wire etc laid on the top. This avoids burning the steel.
Landing gear for MY flying necessitates 1" by 1" by 1/8" steel angle.





old git - - - - - - aka John L.

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2006 6:21 PM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		John,
Thank you for the information you have provided, as I was unaware of the extreme heat needed to change the hardness of the push rod wire, I think I will let that option go to the last resort column. I will get by the LHS and pick up a piece of music wire and try that.
Again my thanks to all for their suggestions and help.
Jim

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2006 7:50 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		I guess that I have been misinformed all these years, and to think that I have been wasting my time doing this when I wanted some harder wire. Goes to show, you learn something new every day.

Here's a few more shots taken a few minutes ago. One shows the vent pipe arrangement.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/24/2006 7:54 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Dang, forgot to do the download. Here goes.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 4:06 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		That is one very good looking air-plane you have there sir.
For those who are still struggling /scratching their heads about the fuel tank. I found a Du-Bro CAT No 420, 20 oz tank that fits the opening in my Waco perfectly. I am beginning to wonder if there aren't some variations between kits and the dimensions of the fuel tank opening, the Hayes slimline (16 oz) I picked up the other day would not come close to filling the tank opening. If any one needs the measurements, the Du-Bro tank measures 2 1/2 H X 3 1/16 W X 7 Long.
Jim

< Message edited by Jim Henley -- 11/25/2006 4:07 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 4:58 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Henley

That is one very good looking air-plane you have there sir.
For those who are still struggling /scratching their heads about the fuel tank. I found a Du-Bro CAT No 420, 20 oz tank that fits the opening in my Waco perfectly. I am beginning to wonder if there aren't some variations between kits and the dimensions of the fuel tank opening, the Hayes slimline (16 oz) I picked up the other day would not come close to filling the tank opening. If any one needs the measurements, the Du-Bro tank measures 2 1/2 H X 3 1/16 W X 7 Long.
Jim


Thank you kindly sir. It is possible that whoever started your WACO decided to make the tank box larger. Mine is one of the earlier kits, and it is entirely possible that Pica made running changes to the model. Every one that I have ever built, and all the kits that I have on hand are the early die cut kits. I have never actually seen one of the later laser cut kits. When I do my next one, there will be several things that I am going to bash. The tank box is going to be one of them. Also, I will be doing away with most of the front end design from the firewall back to at least F-5 and the tank box will be made from ply, thus eliminating the Maple beams. I also plan to make the main landing gear former from heavier ply, and I will probably use, "J"-bolts to secure the gear to the former instead of the hardwood blocks. Also, the tailwheel will be mounted to the last former which will also be ply, and the tailwheel will be either an electric or 1/2A nose wheel set. I plan to use a concealed elevator horn (mounted to the elevator joiner) and only the rudder pull-pull will be visible. I may even make the ailerons pull-pull, The interplane strut mounts will be more scale like in appearance as well. I have been looking at the setup that Genesis uses on the really big model, and it should not be too hard to scale down. I do know that on the one that i will be enlarging, there will be many changes, but that's another model. Ido know that I will be using a much longer sly wing joiner for both upper and lower wings. I have never experienced a joint failure with the Pica setup, but it is a scary setup at best. Boy, did I ever get off track here. I'll try not to do that again.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 5:24 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		I like the sound of the modifications to the kit I have been reading on this thread. I need to start watching e-bay closer and I think there may be a couple of fellows here that have the Pica kit new in the box, so I need to see if one of them would let theirs go.
If anything comes out of the discussions on having at least part of the kit laser cut, I would be interested in one of those kits, as the changes would already be designed in.
While this one will more likely be stand off ( or stand way way off) scale, it would be nice to have accurate documentation to build a really detailed scale model from sometime in the future. Hopefully there will be some interaction with the WACO Owners Association.
Jim

< Message edited by Jim Henley -- 11/25/2006 5:35 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 6:12 AM   
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Status: offline 		Jim, I don't think that the parts will ever be laser cut. If I can get Mace Gill to do them, they will be machine cut and dead nuts accurate. I am in the process of doing the fuselage for a Bulldog Pitts that we are going to raffle off here on RCU. The short kit is laser cut, and I'll be the first to tell you that I have cut plenty of kits in my time that were better than the parts that I have for the Bulldog. I have spent more time straightening them out than it would have taken to do from scratch. Mace's parts fit. period. He is not overpriced with them as well. I will have to cut the first of them myself to provide him with the templates for him to use in cutting the short kits. The new bandsaw will become the old bandsaw in pretty short order.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 6:16 AM   
bart5495


 

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Status: offline 		I have a lazer cut kit that I purchased from ebay last month. If anyone needs a copy of something just let me know.

Doug

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 7:36 AM   
ctflyboy


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Bill,
Yes you are 100% correct on this site more user friendly,I 'm not really fond of the other only reason I go is to check out certain threads, tough for me to find my way around.
Presently my Waco is covered with Solartex cream in color, and painted the ailerons & leading edges Red but other than that no markings, Thats why I want to recover it spend some time and do the trim that really makes it stand out. If I think of it tomorrow I dig up a pic and put it up here.

George

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 8:12 AM   
evdo


 

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Status: offline 		Bill -- great pics first of all, it's great to see it all come together, gives me hope. Also excellent idea about scanning the die-cuts, the prices of the ebay ones get silly at times and after working with this one I feel the need to build one from scratch in the future..

In the meantime it looks like mine will take the slimline 16oz tank, the previous building used 1" square hardwood to frame the tank/up to the firewall and he has it partially chisseled away for a tank, looks like he may have had this exact tank in mind - all dimensions look good (a little over 2 1/4" square all around..

-Tom


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 8:20 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		George,

We are all looking forward to seeing it.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 1:51 PM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		There is an actual lazer cut kit available? I paid big dollars just to get my wing ribs cut at welasercut.com
Very Nice. Don't forget to remove the brown burning before you apply glue !

Bill:
I'm not sure a 5% increase would warrant the effort. I'm thinking a 33% or so and I'll back ya!

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 3:48 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		That one is available from Genesis. I would buy their kit before I even thought about all that is involved in cutting a (short kit even) kit. You should see it. It is probably the nicest kit that I have ever seen.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 11/25/2006 8:53 PM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		I agree, I posted the link for your next build earlier in this thread!
I just received the information package, very nice!

I guess one would have to way the costs involved. Myself, I don't like just assembling another's kit!

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 11:33 AM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		Couldn't resist, I have to share my progress
It's nice to see it coming together. I remember when I first received the plans and started cutting formers LOL



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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 2:39 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		I wish that mine were in that stage of construction (again), There are multitudes of things that I would do differently. Nothing major, just lots of changes. I suppose that's why I have more of these kits to build. I can do something differently each time. I blew mine apart yesterday (Saturday) for the trim painting. Looks like it's going to be a long drawn-out process. Now just why was it that I wanted the areas of the model that are actually aluminum on the full scale airplane to look like metal on the model. There is such a thing as slick, then there is what I'm trying to replicate into the Super-Slick. Dang, being a perfectionist SUX.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ps. Where did you get the laser cut parts????

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 5:46 PM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		Bill,
Did you use the kit supplied nylon brackets for the Inter-plane struts? The plans indicate that one should just use sheet metal screws through the bass wood struts. I was thinking about using blind nuts (T-nuts?) on the strut and bolting through the nylon bracket. I also considered mounting the blind nuts in the nylon.
I was looking at the Genesis kit and I like the looks of that set up much better. I also like the jig to set the incidence on the top wing.
Next question, while there was some discussion, I was never sure what the final outcome was on the proper incidence for the upper and lower wing.
I am using Great Planes laser incidence meter so far when I set my fuse crutch at 0 degrees, the horizontal stab is at +2 degrees.
using that same meter with the fuse (and stab) set correctly what is the incidence for the wings. Plans call for 0 degrees but from the
discussion thread, I got the feeling that it was dependent on the attachment (measuring?) point of the meter. I.E. one that would rest on the wing as opposed to one that attaches to the leading and trailing edges.
I hope this makes sense.
Thanks
Jim

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 6:22 PM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		Hi Bill,
I hear you, I have made a few changes along the way as well, always more a guy can do

I sent my paper wing templates to welasercut.com they were kind enough to cut my ribs. All the other parts have been cut by me and my 20.00 dollar scroll saw

Hi Jim:
I have yet to read that part of the manual yet Myeslf, I was going to set the h stab to 2 degrees to the fuse (done) but then I was going to level the stab and set bottom wing to it, then set upper wing at 1 or 2 degrees.

Probably a good thing you asked this

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 6:49 PM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		H-500,
Hey, good to see you on the board. One thing for sure, building (re-building) this kit sure makes me have to think things through. While the wings are not covered, the kit supplied hardware has been installed and I do not want to have to cut into them if it is not necessary. However as I have learned, mistakes were made in this kit and it is much easier to fix them now than later.
Have you started on the bottom wing yet? Have you tried to use the "jig" that is provided on the plans? I guess my greatest fear is that I will not get the incidence correct and the plane will not fly as designed.
Thanks again for all your help and advise..
Jim

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 7:05 PM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		Hi Jim,
We share the same fears

I have not started on the bottom wing yet. Going to finish up a few things before I start. I'm sure looking forward to it though.


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RE: WACO YMF - 11/26/2006 8:05 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Jim, I used the fuse crutch as the datum line, and set the incidences per the kit manufacturer's requirements (as per the plan call out) It has always worked for me. Didja notice that the plan does not call for any right or down thrust?

I did use the Nylon L-brackets, but I imbedded 2-56 "T" nuts in the struts and bolted everything together. Yeah I like the system that Genesis uses as well, but can you imagine making them in 1/5th scale? I did solder small flat washers to the socket head on the bolts to help spread the load out a little. There's gotta be a better way. I even considered making the L brackets from heavy Brass stock, and soldering a piece of Brass tubing to them and using a piece of music wire attached to the strut to locate it in place. I may do this on the next one. It's a real Bear to set this one up at the flying field. You get to the field, work for about an hour to get it all set up, fly 2 or 3 times for 10 to 15 minutes, and work for an hour to break it all down. It's enough to make you want to buy one of the COX ARF's....NOT!

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/27/2006 2:07 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Be careful what you wish for...You might get it. This morning I saw the pics of Jim's WACO in the bones, and made the comment I wish mine were at that stage. I darn near got my wish. I had been working over the last couple of days to lay out the trim pattern, and had the plane taped off, and wrapped in mask for the application. Thankfully, I started with the top wing, and the trim paint is not compatible with the base color. I dusted the first coat of trim on (so far so good) and let it flash off. The next coat crazed. It lifted all the way to the cloth. The covering on the wing was ruined. There was nothing left, but to strip the entire wing, and start over. The wing is stripped, sanded, and the Koverall in on, and I have 2 coats of nitrate applied. Tomorrow evening I'll add one or two more coats (I don't detect much in the way of pinholes. Then comes the priming, sanding, painting, and once again try the trim. You can bet that I'll be nose to nose with my painter in the morning, and probably he will know what went wrong. I'll keep it solid color before I'll do that again.

Bill, AMa 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 11/27/2006 5:30 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		DANG !! I hate to hear that you had to recover the top wing. Yes please keep us advised as to what went wrong. While I'm no where near the covering stage, I am sure all of us on this thread will want to know what the problem was so we can avoid any paint incompatibility issues when it comes time for us to get our birds in paint.
Jim

< Message edited by Jim Henley -- 11/27/2006 5:31 AM >

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