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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 5:04 PM   
reyn3545



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Status: offline 		OK... I'm going to show how much I don't know again...

I assumed that the bottom wing was always set at zero. There's not another line on the Waco that can be used go measure the others against. There's a downward slope from the cockpit to the cowl, and again from the rear cockpit to the tail. If you were going to set the bottom wing to -1, what would you use as a zero line?

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 5:45 PM   
WacoNut



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Status: offline 		The Pepino Waco has an internal box structure and that should be "0", unfortunately you cannot gain access to that now. You can always check the relationship between the top and bottom wing. If the top wing checks +2 and the bottom checks "0" then shim the bottom wing and block the plane up so the top wing checks +2 and recheck the bottom wing and it should read whatever you shimmed it to. Mind you your struts may no longer fit correctly and may induce warp. My "N" struts are adjustable as well
Anthony

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 5:51 PM   
reyn3545



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I don't know how the bottom wing relates to the box, but the top does have +1 degree incidence. I haven't checked the stab, maybe I'll do that this afternoon.

I have to fly to Orlando on Monday night for a sales meeting that's going to last until Thursday. If it's not raining or 20 degrees outside, I may sneak out during the day on Monday for a little flying time.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 10:12 PM   
Cricklewood


 

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Status: offline 		I sent a comment to RC Report about the article from the Two Old Scale Guys not being in the last issue and the response I got from Julia was that their article missed the deadline. She did indicate that it would be in the next issue. We'll see.

Chris Kerrigan

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 10:36 PM   
reyn3545



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Status: offline 		I got tired of watching pre-Super Bowl hype, so I went down to the basement, put the plane together on the pool table and got the angle meter out....

The lower wings and stabs are in line with each other, and the upper wing has +1 degree of incidence. Should be close enough.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/7/2010 10:44 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cricklewood

I sent a comment to RC Report about the article from the Two Old Scale Guys not being in the last issue and the response I got from Julia was that their article missed the deadline. She did indicate that it would be in the next issue. We'll see.

Chris Kerrigan

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Missed the deadline indeed. They keep changing the so-called deadline.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/8/2010 12:14 AM   
Cricklewood


 

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Status: offline 		Bill,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was judging you just passing on the response I got from RC Report. And yes it is hard to meet the deadline if they keep on changing it. I look forward to, hopefully, seeing your joint article in the next RC Report.

Chris,

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/8/2010 3:51 AM   
mrdhud



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Status: offline 		Bill, I got the same response from Julia I got the feeling she didn’t appreciate my email to much. Guess I griped to much.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/9/2010 5:00 PM   
aminiet



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Status: offline 		Apologize for the delay in posting the picture. I was having my hair done.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/9/2010 6:10 PM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Hey - They did a nice job with the hair!! But barbering aside, I am close to finishing the wings on my Waco ARE and am trying to decide my next step. The wings are sheeted over ribs so I thought I'd glass them with some 1/2OZ or 3/4OZ cloth. They are very strong with carbon fiber strips on the main spar so the glass is not to add any strength, just create a paint surface. I will be covering the open framework with Sig Koverall and applying a dope finish - or at this point nitrate dope to fill the cloth prior to painting with something! Dope or acrylic or latex or Krylon - still deciding. Others in the club suggest I should skip the FG and just cover the wing with the Koverall cloth and dope, since the strength is already in the wing, and save myself some mess!
Do my brothers have any thoughts on the pros and cons of this??
Thanx

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/9/2010 8:10 PM   
lazyace


 

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Status: offline 		koverall and dope are all you need

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/9/2010 11:04 PM   
WacoNut



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Status: offline 		Jim,
If you don't want to smell all that dope try Polycrylic to fill the weave, I am using that on my 33% and it's working out good. I am give you some tips if you want to go that route.
Later!!
Anthony

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/10/2010 5:12 PM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Thanks for the info Anthony. Here's another little puzzler I just ran into on the Waco ARE build. For years I've been using the Robarts incidence meter to check the wing incidences as I build my models. The wing incidences on the plans say that both wings are to be set at Zero degrees to the Thrust/L with the stab at 1 1/2 degrees. So I carefully blocked the inverted fuse up level and set the wing in the saddle and slapped on my incidence meter. Horror of horrors it was 2 1/2 degrees out!! This meant I would have to carve 1/4" out of the rear of the saddle or raise the LE 1/4" to acheive zero degrees. This area is all ply and hardwood and not something I want to contemplate and my wing fit to fuse would be ruined!!.

I was sure I built it accurately so I checked the plans again and I noticed that the line through the side view of the wing was parallel to both the thrust line and the "bottom" of the Clark Y wing, but did not pass through the wing trailing edge. On putting a level on the bottom of the wing, I was indeed at Zero!!

So which is right? Dario built and flew this aircraft many times with great success so I don't think the plans are wrong and I will go with the setup as built. But what about the difference in the readings? Dario was too good a designer to make an error in this regard so what's up??

I've tried to copy the plans to illustrate my problem and I'd appreciate your points of view?



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/10/2010 8:16 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Where is the wing saddle relative to the datum line?

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/10/2010 10:17 PM   
SuperCub Man



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ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Where is the wing saddle relative to the datum line?

Bill, Waco Brother #1

Don't quite understand your question Bill. I posted the plan section above and it shows the wing saddle, wing outline and datum (center) line. Am I missing something or do I not get what you're driving at?

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/10/2010 10:32 PM   
Phlip



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuperCub Man

So which is right? Dario built and flew this aircraft many times with great success so I don't think the plans are wrong and I will go with the setup as built. But what about the difference in the readings? Dario was too good a designer to make an error in this regard so what's up??



I think it's a common mistake to use the flat bottom of an airfoil as the datum line.  I think Dario erred in this regard.

A plane that is set up with zero wing incidence and positive stab incidence won't fly very well as there's no decalage.  If you use thrust as zero, then plus 2 1/2, plus 1 1/2 degrees makes sense; although I'd state it as 2 1/2 degrees down thrust, zero wing incidence, negative 1 degree stab incidence.

But I'm definitely not an expert!


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/10/2010 11:17 PM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		Jim,
I am a relative new comer to building a biplane, but I would think checking the incidence with the plane upside down would give you some odd readings, since the Clark Y is not semitrical, wouldn't that throw your incidence off?

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 12:50 AM   
WacoNut



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Status: offline 		Jim it looks like you have a flat bottom airfoil, if so then you should be getting a positive incidnce reading like you are getting. There is no way you should be that far off with the saddle cut per the plans. If you measure the incidence of a flat bottom airfoil you will get a positive incidence reading with the bottom of the airfoil at "0" to the datum line.
I would go with what you have.
Anthony

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 3:11 AM   
SuperCub Man



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ORIGINAL: WacoNut

Jim it looks like you have a flat bottom airfoil, if so then you should be getting a positive incidnce reading like you are getting. There is no way you should be that far off with the saddle cut per the plans. If you measure the incidence of a flat bottom airfoil you will get a positive incidence reading with the bottom of the airfoil at ''0'' to the datum line.
I would go with what you have.
Anthony



That's what I think and that's what I've done. I'll assemble it tomorrow and re-measure the incidence when it's all bolted down. Thanks everyone - for all the help

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 6:52 AM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		If you look carefully at the plan you will see that the line the designer has quoted as the 'Incidence line' is parallel to the bottom surface of the wing and parallel to the 'fuselage datum line'. Using your incidence meter will then give you quite a different answer unless you use the same convention as the designer. I think you used the bottom of the wing on one of you checks, and got the same answer as the plan indicates. Your confusion is related to which convention you use for 'incidence'. You could carefully draw a line from the centre of the leading edge radius through the centre of the trailing edge and measure the angular difference to the datum, and re-do the incidence meter thing again, and you will end up with the same thing, only now you meter will read around 2.5 deg. Either way it seems your bottom wing is about right. Conventional wisdom with these Waco's seems to indicate that the top wing should be around 1 deg less than the bottom wing, and the tailplane about 1~2deg positive to the bottom wing.
Evan, WB #12

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 7:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		Bill,

'Nuther complaint to RC Report Online, and a very similar response...except my response from Julia was simply a Quote of her response to Dan...guess we are too much trouble to appreciate? Love your thread(s) and the column...keep the faith!



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 9:42 PM   
shootnstarz


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Folks,

I've aquired two 1/5 Wacos in the past years. One, at one time, was a contest winner. It was scaled out to the max with all the rib stitching, rivets, fuel lines and caps, everything. It was in pretty rough condition when I got it but I can tell it was once a beauty. I flew it a couple of times but it is very heavy, wouldn't even pull itself through a loop. Plus this model was operating four ailerons with one servo and the slop was unbelievable. I decided to modify it with two servos but haven't flown it since. It still needs a lot of TLC but I really would hate to strip and recover it and lose what detail is left. It is off white and marroon, maybe somebody here built it, bought it in the Tampa area.

The other one I got in a buy out. Haven't flown it but it is much lighter and has no real detail. I think the guy I got it from didn't know what sandpaper was. I'd have no trouble stripping and recoving it, after some sanding and smoothing. It too used the one aileron servo set up but I'd probably rig it up with four since I'll be stripping the wings.

I read some of the first post on this thread but without combing through all 400 pages can someone enlighten me on what happened to the kit cutting idea? Is Cox reproducing them?

Rick

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/11/2010 10:53 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		No one is cutting them. If you want one, then order the plans and templates from the AMA and cut it yourself. Or you can download the templates from the House of Moy site. Either way, you have to cut your own.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/12/2010 12:49 AM   
SuperCub Man



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Status: offline 		Hi Evan,
Yes I did see that on the plans. I have now bolted the wing on and taken measurements with the Robarts meter. The fuse datum line is at 0 degrees as is the bottom of the wing. My measurement is +1.5 degrees on the wing and +1.5 on the stab. So I guess in fact I have a wing and stab set up at 0 degrees and down thrust of -1.5 degrees on the firewall.. All seems to be in order for now and can be adjusted later if necessary - but at least I'm in the ballpark!! I'm just unsure why Dario listed his settings in this manner. Perhaps it would be easier to set up this way if you didn't have any fancy gadgets. Whatever!!
Thanks for the advise, now on to the rest of the fuse.

Jim

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/12/2010 1:05 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		I have a question for the group. In looking at the Pica plan sheet for the wings, the interplane strut mounts are ahead of the main spar (front strut) and behind W-35 for the rear. Is this the scale location or should the mounts straddle the main spar and W-25? (like the Pepino and AMR versions do) I want to eliminiate the nylon attachment Pica furnished so, now would be the time to make sure that the strut attachment is in the proper location.
Thanks!

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