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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 8:26 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Bill,

Hadn't thought about the roof flashing, thanks for that idea. Do you happen to have a photo of the kit tank piece? I have a picture of the bottom of the fuel tank on a enclosed rear cockpit WACO (not sure of the model) that shows ribs on the bottom of the tank. I got the photo from Aircraft Photo Database Search http://www.russellw.com/photoalbum/photo_query_form.asp . It has many close up photos of different WACOs, but just a few of the YMF.


No picture yet, but I can shoot one for you. I'm charging the camera batteries right now.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 8:40 PM   
Aeroron


 

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Status: offline 		Stickbuilder, First I want to thank you for starting this thread. Thanks also to all who have contrubuted to it. I aqiured a Pica Waco YMF 3 kit about a year ago. The kit had been started. The tail feathers were built.and the wing must have been started but not included with the kit. The templates you posted will allow me to build this old beauty. The kit did come with a nice fiberglass cowl. The number sramped on the box is 51209,Old! I am looking forward to the build. Can I join the Brotherhood? Thanks again Ron

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 9:06 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Bill,

Thanks, when you get time.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 10:01 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeroron

Stickbuilder, First I want to thank you for starting this thread. Thanks also to all who have contrubuted to it. I aqiured a Pica Waco YMF 3 kit about a year ago. The kit had been started. The tail feathers were built.and the wing must have been started but not included with the kit. The templates you posted will allow me to build this old beauty. The kit did come with a nice fiberglass cowl. The number sramped on the box is 51209,Old! I am looking forward to the build. Can I join the Brotherhood? Thanks again Ron


Ron,

Welcome to the Brotherhood. You are Brother #32. I hope that you continue to get some good from the thread. I just came in from the shop, where I was Covering the H-stab with the Koverall, and adding the first coat of Nitrate dope. I am going to cover and clear dope each subassembly as I go, rather than completing this one in the bones, and then covering the entire model at once. I think that this will enable me to enjoy the build a little more. Once the frame is completed, the covering seems to be a Monumental task. If it is covered as I go, maybe this will not be the case. We'll see. At any rate, there will be photos all the way through the build. The modifications that I am performing on this build are not universally reccomended for everyone. The adjustable H-stab for instance might get some builders in trouble, and ruin their model. Think and ask questions as we progress through the build, and if you are not comfortable with what I (or other builders) want to accomplish, ignore that portion of our build, and build yours straight from the plan. That's the best part about building your own. You don't have to accept what someone else wanted. If you have ideas concerning the build, let's hear them. You might have some insights that are better than are ours. It is easy for me to become bore sighted, and oblivious to anything else when I get on a tear.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 2/18/2007 10:03 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 10:04 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		I'll be back on line after the 500. I want to see one of our other Brothers handiwork in action. damifino does a lot of work on some of the cars in the race. Wishing him and his team well.

Bill, AMA 4720
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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 11:23 PM   
flyguy888



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Status: offline 		FYI
That stab and fin design covers terrible in my opinion. You should consider adding wood to the out side profile edges between the ribs for constant thickness edges. It will cover better amd look better. Just my opinion .

quote:

ORIGINAL: damifino

Here's a picture of my horizontal stab and elevators. A little over 4 hours invested so far. Still have to taper the ribs, cut hinge slots and fit up the pieces for adjustable incidence. Vertical stab and rudder are next.



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/18/2007 11:25 PM   
flyguy888



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aeroron

Stickbuilder, First I want to thank you for starting this thread. Thanks also to all who have contrubuted to it. I aqiured a Pica Waco YMF 3 kit about a year ago. The kit had been started. The tail feathers were built.and the wing must have been started but not included with the kit. The templates you posted will allow me to build this old beauty. The kit did come with a nice fiberglass cowl. The number sramped on the box is 51209,Old! I am looking forward to the build. Can I join the Brotherhood? Thanks again Ron



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 12:11 AM   
damifino



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quote:

FYI
That stab and fin design covers terrible in my opinion. You should consider adding wood to the out side profile edges between the ribs for constant thickness edges. It will cover better amd look better. Just my opinion .


The ribs have not yet been sanded to their respective taper at the leading edge of the H-stab. Seems to me the tail feathers would look pretty silly if they were finished at almost a half inch thick on the leading edge. Check out STICKBUILDERS pictures in the bones and finished earlier in this thread, his looks right to me.

< Message edited by damifino -- 2/19/2007 12:13 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 1:57 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		I've been working with the ailerons, these were built slightly under size, not sure why, unless it was to allow for the ABS caps. Anyway, I added some stock to the trailing edge and they cleaned up real nice. Queston, thought that someone had posted that there were 31 or 35 corrigations to each aileron, If I space mine out at 1/2 inch I can get just about 28 or so which on this model should be OK. I have been thinking of using 1/16 inch square stock and will cover the ailerons with super coverite. how thin should the T.E. of the wings and ailerons be? Seems that I read the T.E. of the ailerons was fairly thin and that the corrigations should touch one another (Top and Bottom).
Any suggestions would be welcome..

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 2:17 AM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Jim,

According to the Paul Matt drawings posted earlier in this thread (at least I think it was this thread) on plate #1 of 3 states "Standard WACO Aileron, Stamped Aluminum, 34 Stiffeners"

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 4:09 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ronj10

FYI
That stab and fin design covers terrible in my opinion. You should consider adding wood to the out side profile edges between the ribs for constant thickness edges. It will cover better amd look better. Just my opinion .

quote:

ORIGINAL: damifino

Here's a picture of my horizontal stab and elevators. A little over 4 hours invested so far. Still have to taper the ribs, cut hinge slots and fit up the pieces for adjustable incidence. Vertical stab and rudder are next.




Ron,

Tell me if you will just how is it that you should have a constant thickness, since the full scale bird uses ribs that are taller than is the diameter of the leading edge tube. Trust me, this is the correct method. If you increase the cross section of the leading edge, it looks as if the leading edge is made from well casing. It's just too big. Here is a photo of the Horizontal Stab that I am currently working on. one side is covered, the other is not. The build is identical, and the covering job is not a problem. Just don't get carried away with the dope in the open span areas. You only want it to touch the leading edge, trailing edge and ribs.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 4:11 AM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Bill,

Hadn't thought about the roof flashing, thanks for that idea. Do you happen to have a photo of the kit tank piece? I have a picture of the bottom of the fuel tank on a enclosed rear cockpit WACO (not sure of the model) that shows ribs on the bottom of the tank. I got the photo from Aircraft Photo Database Search http://www.russellw.com/photoalbum/photo_query_form.asp . It has many close up photos of different WACOs, but just a few of the YMF.



And, here it is.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 4:17 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Jay,

Looking good. You are a little further along than me. I haven't built the elevators yet, but I have been working on the Stab.
Are you going to use the joiner, or are you going to do a servo on each side?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 4:25 AM   
khodges


 

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Status: offline 		The resolution gets worse with enlargement, but does this help?

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 5:11 AM   
Jim Henley


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks, yes that helps, and that is a great shot showing the flying wires .


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 5:15 AM   
damifino



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Status: offline 		Using a hardwood dowel for a joiner and probably pull-pull. Hope to do the brass joiner tubes for the H-stab tonight. Will be ready for some parts tracings very soon...hint, hint!

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 5:33 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Yeah, Yeah, I was watching the race this afternoon, and was a Lazy Butt. I've got to make 34 sets of copies, andd get them all out. I might as well make a few extra, I'll need to send one to the AMA so they can include the templates with tthe plans.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 7:18 AM   
khodges


 

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Status: offline 		Jim, I'm thinking real hard of painting mine in that cream color and trimming it in burgundy. Red is very nice, but red and yellow seem to be the popular colors.


Oh, Brothers, Where Art Thou? Sorry, couldn't resist. I was doing some research unrelated to our WACO projects, and oddly enough, found some pictures of Stickbuilder when he was making like a hole in the water: 1st one is his boat, and the other is him in his long past prime

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 7:21 AM   
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Thanks for the tank pictures. I am going to see if I can replicate it in aluminum. Heck of a finish at Daytona, to bad for Martin.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 1:18 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: khodges

Jim, I'm thinking real hard of painting mine in that cream color and trimming it in burgundy. Red is very nice, but red and yellow seem to be the popular colors.


Oh, Brothers, Where Art Thou? Sorry, couldn't resist. I was doing some research unrelated to our WACO projects, and oddly enough, found some pictures of Stickbuilder when he was making like a hole in the water: 1st one is his boat, and the other is him in his long past prime


"Sigh", you just won't let it go will you? Do I really need to dig up that old poster about sleeping well, your Air Force is Awake?


Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 4:12 PM   
flyguy888



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Status: offline 		Dear Bill,
I made a mistake in not specifying that this problem occurs with iron on covering. That being said, I believe it is a mistake to think the only correct way to build a model is scale. That is such a personal choice it should not be "the only right way" for building anything. I covered my tail feathers per plan and I am not pleased with the suck down of the covering between the ribs at the leading edges. And it is not because I do not know how to cover an airplane although it very well could be because iron on does not yield well to this type of frame work. I know you hate iron on , but then again that is a personal choice also. Iron on covering sucks down badly on either side of the rib at the leading edge making the design aerodynamically dirty and could generate air vortexes (see graphic at bottom).
Maybe mine just ended up extemely ugly. I dunno.
I thought that to firm up the entire leading edge to make it the same profile as they are at the rib area (this does not increase the leading edge profile) would make them like any ordinary sport plane and would look better and perform better. The leading edge would be exactly like the the stab on a Sirius which is also a 1930's design.
If you remember, I did say it was a personal opinion. The new waco's were changed to have a constant thickness leading edge proving that people normally take liberties to change things as they see fit. I am only giving others a heads up about how these tailplanes look. I am empowering people with information to make a personal choice.
I like your idea of adding the lightening holes to the stab . That was a nice idea.
If I change and recover my tailplanes and they look bad I will get back to you and make the proper burnt offerings and sacrifices .
You know what they say about old people. They are like concrete. Mixed up and set in their ways.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


quote:

ORIGINAL: ronj10

FYI
That stab and fin design covers terrible in my opinion. You should consider adding wood to the out side profile edges between the ribs for constant thickness edges. It will cover better amd look better. Just my opinion .

quote:

ORIGINAL: damifino

Here's a picture of my horizontal stab and elevators. A little over 4 hours invested so far. Still have to taper the ribs, cut hinge slots and fit up the pieces for adjustable incidence. Vertical stab and rudder are next.




Ron,

Tell me if you will just how is it that you should have a constant thickness, since the full scale bird uses ribs that are taller than is the diameter of the leading edge tube. Trust me, this is the correct method. If you increase the cross section of the leading edge, it looks as if the leading edge is made from well casing. It's just too big. Here is a photo of the Horizontal Stab that I am currently working on. one side is covered, the other is not. The build is identical, and the covering job is not a problem. Just don't get carried away with the dope in the open span areas. You only want it to touch the leading edge, trailing edge and ribs.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1




Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
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< Message edited by ronj10 -- 2/19/2007 8:04 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 7:14 PM   
skylarkmk1



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Status: offline 		Ron,

Silk and dope, iron on, koverall, any of the flexable coverings will sag between the ribs and stringers, it is its nature. You graphic picture does show this well (maybe a little exaggerated, but fairly accurate) when compared to the close up of an WACO AQC tail group. Notice that there is more sag (suck down as you call it) on the more curved portions of the rib than the flatter sections. It may be a constant sag, but appears more pronounced at those points. When I first read your earlier post, I was thinking that the covering was sticking to the sheet base the ribs are glued to. The plans recommend waxing the sheet part of the tail structure to prevent the covering from sticking between the ribs (mostly for the silk and dopers out there).

You thoughts about changing the L.E. profile are fine for you. I prefer the original, scale profile. As you stated, it is a personnel choice. Hope fully the scale look will grow on you. Good luck to you.

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< Message edited by skylarkmk1 -- 2/19/2007 7:15 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 8:05 PM   
flyguy888



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Status: offline 		Those edges look good. Mine look really ugly. I should post a picture tonight of my leading edges . Maybe I did not sand the ribs far enough back. In any event, I have to change my stab and fin.
I do not think I will ever get into scale detail. Unfortunatly I crash my airplanes from time to time because I fly them to death. I use iron on covering and simple detail to expedite quick repairs. I can not speak for you fellows, but the guys who show up at our field with highly scaled planes fly them once or twice a year and mostly let them be show pieces on the ground. Some scale jobs I see at the field once every three years and I know I am not missing them because I am at the field most all the time. From club meets I have seen many scale projects shown off that never see the flying field. I do enjoy looking at them. People do beautiful work that is a reward in itself. That prop a few threads back was a work of art. I would be surprised if he is going to fuel and fly that plane four times a saturday though. I have been flying for 30 years and if I cannot fly crash free by now I probably never will.



quote:

ORIGINAL: skylarkmk1

Ron,

Silk and dope, iron on, koverall, any of the flexable coverings will sag between the ribs and stringers, it is its nature. You graphic picture does show this well (maybe a little exaggerated, but fairly accurate) when compared to the close up of an WACO AQC tail group. Notice that there is more sag (suck down as you call it) on the more curved portions of the rib than the flatter sections. It may be a constant sag, but appears more pronounced at those points. When I first read your earlier post, I was thinking that the covering was sticking to the sheet base the ribs are glued to. The plans recommend waxing the sheet part of the tail structure to prevent the covering from sticking between the ribs (mostly for the silk and dopers out there).

You thoughts about changing the L.E. profile are fine for you. I prefer the original, scale profile. As you stated, it is a personnel choice. Hope fully the scale look will grow on you. Good luck to you.



< Message edited by ronj10 -- 2/19/2007 8:41 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 8:32 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Ron,

I start the rib profile change for about the forward 1/3rd of the rib. Your experience may have to do with having an abrupt change ot airfoil cross section. My finished model looks about like the full scale. This may explain your unhappiness with the sag between the ribs. As to my not liking iron-on...I started this hobby too many years age. I don't know how to use it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/19/2007 9:27 PM   
flyguy888



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Status: offline 		I would say you are probably right. My ribs have a normal leading edge radius instead of a long gradual one tapering back. But if I have all the covering stripped off I have the one time option of making a solid leading edge. Something I want to think about.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Ron,

I start the rib profile change for about the forward 1/3rd of the rib. Your experience may have to do with having an abrupt change ot airfoil cross section. My finished model looks about like the full scale. This may explain your unhappiness with the sag between the ribs. As to my not liking iron-on...I started this hobby too many years age. I don't know how to use it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1



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