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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 7:27 AM   
bart5495


 

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From: Edmonds, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Captain Jim. If you don't mind me asking: What are you a Captain Of? Just curious
Doug
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< Message edited by bart5495 -- 2/27/2007 7:28 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 8:27 AM   
jim schroer


 

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Status: offline 		That kit was laser cut and only 15 years old. Maybe that is why, but I think this forum is largely responsible. Would someone please hazard a guess as to how much it would cost to buy the balsa ,ply and fiberglass parts that you would find in the kit. thanks, Jim #9

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 8:36 AM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		Not a lot less

I have a brand new white and red kit sitting on my shelf. I have seen this kit go for 350
I've been thinking about letting it go on Ebay hmmmmmm.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 2:07 PM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Jim,

Great question. I think that this model can be replicated for somewhere in the $200 to $250 range, and that's with buying the wheel pants and cowl from a glass company. Why in the world would anyone want to buy one at an inflated price any longer? That is the purpose for this entire exercise. You don't have to hunt for them any longer. It's right here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 3:03 PM   
Capt Jim


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bart5495

Captain Jim. If you don't mind me asking: What are you a Captain Of? Just curious
Doug
Waco Brotherhood #11




It's an old story, but the short of it is that years ago, before I retired, I held a U.S.C.G. captains license, and I lived in the FL keys. That license allowed me to skipper a dive boat for a large resort. It was a fun job in paradise. The locals there in the Keys like to hang a name on everyone, and instead of simply calling me Jim...it was Capt Jim....as though it was all one word. heh heh. It kinda stuck and even today if I visit my old friends down there...that's the way they address me. It just seemed to be a handy name to use here on RCU.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 3:55 PM   
flyguy888



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From: coon rapids, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Bill, I respectfully disagree,
Someday the last kit will be gone and that is what makes the information gathered in this thread invaluable.
However, time is money unless your rich, bored and retired. Even at 5.00 an hour, how many personal labor hours would it take me to figure out my stick needs, drive to hobby shops to gather all the wood and trace templates to cut my own bulkheads and ribs. And the price of sheet ply at the hobby shop has gone outta sight. A Pica kit at 350.00 would be dirt cheap just in time saved compared to scratch building.
Even if you get an laser outfit to supply a short kit for 200.00, plans are always extra in short kits as well as cowl, decals, hardware, sheet and stick stock. You still have to buy all that stuff. You would have to spend close to 400.00 to get to the place where you have the same as a pica kit. In my opinion, a complete kit at 350.00 ready to go is a real deal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Jim,

Great question. I think that this model can be replicated for somewhere in the $200 to $250 range, and that's with buying the wheel pants and cowl from a glass company. Why in the world would anyone want to buy one at an inflated price any longer? That is the purpose for this entire exercise. You don't have to hunt for them any longer. It's right here.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 5:03 PM   
Edwin


 

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Status: offline 		CaptJim,
I had the exact same thing happen on my biplane (Pheaton 90). Built 0-0-0. Ballooned and would float too long near the ground. I added a 1/4" shim on the top wing back struts and solved it the same as yours. Flys beautiful and love it.
Edwin

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 6:01 PM   
flyguy888



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From: coon rapids, MN, USA
Status: offline 		The shim idea is good to know.
Anyway, I have heard this 1/5 Waco does not "balloon or float" in any configuration. When slowed up it stops flying abruptly and becomes a rock. I have not flown my plane yet. It is finished but there is a foot of snow on the ground. I have lots of time to fuss with it between now and May, which is typically the first month of stable flying weather here in Minnesota. You can get out earlier to fly, but it is usually muddy and very windy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwin

CaptJim,
I had the exact same thing happen on my biplane (Pheaton 90). Built 0-0-0. Ballooned and would float too long near the ground. I added a 1/4" shim on the top wing back struts and solved it the same as yours. Flys beautiful and love it.
Edwin



< Message edited by ronj10 -- 2/27/2007 6:15 PM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 9:19 PM   
Stickbuilder



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quote:

ORIGINAL: ronj10

Bill, I respectfully disagree,
Someday the last kit will be gone and that is what makes the information gathered in this thread invaluable.
However, time is money unless your rich, bored and retired. Even at 5.00 an hour, how many personal labor hours would it take me to figure out my stick needs, drive to hobby shops to gather all the wood and trace templates to cut my own bulkheads and ribs. And the price of sheet ply at the hobby shop has gone outta sight. A Pica kit at 350.00 would be dirt cheap just in time saved compared to scratch building.
Even if you get an laser outfit to supply a short kit for 200.00, plans are always extra in short kits as well as cowl, decals, hardware, sheet and stick stock. You still have to buy all that stuff. You would have to spend close to 400.00 to get to the place where you have the same as a pica kit. In my opinion, a complete kit at 350.00 ready to go is a real deal.




Ron,
That's why it's called a hobby. It is an avocation. You are supposed to enjoy cutting the parts and building the model. It is not about the time involved. If time is of the essence to you, might I suggest the ARF that COX sells for $379.00? Otherwise, don't count the time building or cutting. I was talking about the actual cost in materials and hardware and wood. If you count my time in the WACO just finished at the same $5.00 per hour rate, I could have bought several of the ARF's. This is what I enjoy doing in my spare time, and I will not put a price on that. As to the price of ply at the Hobby shop, might I suggest buying a doorskin from Home Depot, or Lowes, and making lots of parts at a fraction of the price. I have no interest in cutting kits for profit, or otherwise, I just like the knowledge that these parts are available for those who wish to take the time and be able to build something that was only available from the hoarders, or profiteers out there. Whatever you like. Have fun.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1


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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 9:40 PM   
ctflyboy


 

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Status: offline 		Doug,
Had I known it was you I would have backed off,

George
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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 9:43 PM   
ChrisMH



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

As to the price of ply at the Hobby shop, might I suggest buying a doorskin from Home Depot, or Lowes, and making lots of parts at a fraction of the price. I have no interest in cutting kits for profit, or otherwise, I just like the knowledge that these parts are available for those who wish to take the time and be able to build something that was only available from the hoarders, or profiteers out there. Whatever you like. Have fun.



For plywood in 1/8" and greater, go to a decent lumber yard. If they don't have it in stock, they'll be able to order you Balic Birch plywood. It's high grade plywood in 5'x5' sections. Maybe $30 for 1/8, $45 for 1/4". It'll last you many airplanes.

Oh, and I agree...time isn't the issue for me either...otherwise I wouldn't be spending hours and hours working on a CAD model before I even start cutting parts

Chris



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/27/2007 11:56 PM   
flyguy888



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Status: offline 		Stickbuilder,

I like to build kits. I like to avoid scratch building if I can get a kit. I love my wife and kids more than I like my hobby and I have a 50 hour job, so I need to find some balance. The value of ones time is relative to ones lifestyle. I have time for kits but not scratch building unless it is a very special project where I cannot get a kit. I really like to build, but have to stay within the limits of my time constriants.
My point is that if you build this plane for 200.00, you had to use resources other than money to get down to that price. And those resources do have qualifyable value. For you, the extra hours are enjoyment, for me, they are hours away from my wife and kids.
Kits work for me. I fell kinda slapped that you think because I do not like to cut every part that I should be buying and ARF .

< Message edited by ronj10 -- 2/28/2007 12:31 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 1:09 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		No insult intended. I was under the impression that you were wanting to cut your own, and was surprised that you did not. My Bad.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 1:20 AM   
flyguy888



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From: coon rapids, MN, USA
Status: offline 		I originally came to this thread just for information on finishing and flying the Waco I have. This thread has been invaluable in that respect. My other intention has always been to get a good set of dxf files to lay out in standard plywood and balsa sizes and find a laser cutter. But I really need hard parts that I can personally measure to get good dxf files. I am probably going to have to buy a kit at some point and copy the diecuts templates. I know that you have already made excellent tracings, but I really need hard parts to get good cad files made. I expect this to take quite awhile because I have limited time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

No insult intended. I was under the impression that you were wanting to cut your own, and was surprised that you did not. My Bad.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 4:27 AM   
khodges


 

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Status: offline 		Converted the rudder and V-stab today, made the aerodynamic counterbalance by cutting a wedge out of the V-stab and gluing it to the rudder. I also added two horizontal ribs to the stab and cut back the diagonal ones so they would not show under the covering. I also cut out the rudder trim tab, will cover it separately and just glue it back in place.

The ailerons are finished, the corrugations look pretty good. I inset the control horn (a Robart) as well as the aileron link horns. I used the ARF ones, and inset the side opposite the tab on the horn, cut through the aileron and inserted the tab through the aileron, and epoxied both horns in place, then covered over them with the corrugated sheeting.

I'll finish out the day cutting hinge slots for the ailerons and rudder. Still have the H stab and elevators to modify.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 5:01 AM   
Stickbuilder



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Status: offline 		Ken,

Please take more pics of the ailerons, especially showing the leading and trailing edges. What did you use to adhere the plastic to the balsa? How did you handle the transition from wood to plastic? Filler? (if any) Looks great. I have been soldering my pivot hinge and the control horn for the adjustable stab tonight. It should work just fine. It will look more scale like as well. Looks as if you are modelling the WACO Classic, rather than the original, or did any of the original YMF models have the counterbalanced rudder?

Bill, AMA 4720
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< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 2/28/2007 5:02 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 7:08 AM   
damifino



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quote:

My other intention has always been to get a good set of dxf files to lay out in standard plywood and balsa sizes and find a laser cutter. But I really need hard parts that I can personally measure to get good dxf files. I am probably going to have to buy a kit at some point and copy the diecuts templates. I know that you have already made excellent tracings, but I really need hard parts to get good cad files made.

Unless you really like spending your time doing things besides building, why would you dump $275.00 to $325.00 on a kit so you can copy the parts? A kit can be built in the time it will take to draw them into CAD files, then you must add in the cost of laser services, unless of course you have a connection with a laser outfit. Your price per piece (time invested, materials and cutting) will be very high unless you plan to cut a quanity of kits to help offset the initial investment.

STICKBUILDER- PACKAGE INTERCEPTED FROM BROWN TRUCK THIS PM STOP CONTENTS ANALYZED STOP THE BROWN DOG BARKS AT A FULL MOON STOP WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? STOP DAMIFINO

< Message edited by damifino -- 2/28/2007 7:10 AM >

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 7:32 AM   
old git


 

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Hi Ron,

I'm inclined to agree with you about the time and difficulty etc involved in sourcing all the bits and pieces. Another aspect is the dream quotient, I have more kits, engines, wheels, drawings etc etc than I will ever build. Part of modelling is planning what to build and how, the next project and so on, in fact it's the better part. The more one has in reserve the wider the choice becomes.

Elsewhere on RCU there has been dismay, horror and other exclamations at the prices some items gain. When you see something you wanted as a teenager (or maybe a bit older) and find it now within reach, logic is absent from the equation.

By the way for the benefit of anyone in UK, Rutlands supplies Gorilla Glue, £8.00 for an 8oz bottle.





old git - - - - - - - aka John L.

WACO Brotherhood No. 14.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 8:12 AM   
bart5495


 

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Status: offline 		Do people really use that Gorilla Glue? I've never bought it and have always wonder how good it is.
What would one use it for?

Doug
Brotherhood #11

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 8:39 AM   
damifino



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Status: offline 		For the sake of dicussion- Each and every one of us share a common interest, right? How we express or pursue that interest is very individualized and personal, it comes from inside us, from our peers and how we were raised and taught. How each individual chooses to enjoy the hobby is the right way for him. I consider scratching this WACO an enjoyable challenge. I consider thinking about it, sourcing the parts and materials, and cutting them, and gluing them, and flying them--- enjoyable. Money, while certainly a consideration since I have 3 young children, does not really enter the equation because it is a relatively small amount to begin with.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 5:00 PM   
Skinny Bob



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quote:

ORIGINAL: damifino

For the sake of dicussion- Each and every one of us share a common interest, right? How we express or pursue that interest is very individualized and personal, it comes from inside us, from our peers and how we were raised and taught. How each individual chooses to enjoy the hobby is the right way for him. I consider scratching this WACO an enjoyable challenge. I consider thinking about it, sourcing the parts and materials, and cutting them, and gluing them, and flying them--- enjoyable. Money, while certainly a consideration since I have 3 young children, does not really enter the equation because it is a relatively small amount to begin with.

I totally agree. I have projects that I have not finished, but when I looked at a picture of the Woods UBF-2 I said I have to model that one. Then I found this thread and I really got pumped up about building a Waco. I bought plans for a 1/6 UMF and began paper tracing the formers and scanned them into Coral Draw, vector traced over the image and converted to dxf, imported them into a 3D CAD program and started building a virtual model. I had never done this before, hence quite a learning curve!. My point, I may not get this plane built, but I am having a great time with what I'm doing. I am also gaining a great deal of information and tips from the brothers. What more can you ask for?.

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 6:08 PM   
mmattockx


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bart5495

Do people really use that Gorilla Glue? I've never bought it and have always wonder how good it is.
What would one use it for?

Doug
Brotherhood #11


Yes, people use it. Some people swear by it for a lot of things. I have never used Gorilla Glue because it is very expensive compared to the Elmer's Pro Bond version of the polyurethane glue, but it is the same stuff in the end. It works most places you would use epoxy, especially for laminating pieces and sheeting foam core wings. It is lighter than epoxy and doesn't have nasty fumes. The big thing to know is that it foams and expands as it cures and this requires that the pieces be clamped together to avoid them shifting while the glue cures. On the plus side, this means it fills gaps very well. Check out Terry Brox's pattern wing construction site for an excellent primer on the use of PU glues:

http://www.mackrc.net/patternwings2/index.htm


Mark

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 9:46 PM   
Hughes500E



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Status: offline 		Ummmmm, I would like to revisit the incidence for a minute. I believe some are confused

Bill your first post was correct, positive incidence is leading edge DOWN, this is according to my Robart Incidence meter. With the leading edge down you are indeed adding up elevator.

Have a look at the meter in the picture below.

So, judging by everyones setup techniques. With the fuse level (leveled crutch) this plane has a nose down attitude. Too much for my liking, (if this is my flying attitude, I won't like it) however, it does provide us with confirmation. Crutch level = nose down which equals stab at 2 degrees positive, leading edge down, ultimately elevator up to keep nose up. (confirmed)
positive incidence is leading edge down (elevator up)

Can I:
set my flying attitude via the crutch the way I like it? A little more level but still slightly nose down and set stab and wings to that?
I know this was mentioned but I am lookin' for confirmation ?



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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 10:06 PM   
Hughes500E



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From: Armstrong, BC, CANADA
Status: offline 		With my crutch level, my fuse is sitting in a nose down attitude. When I put the meter on the stab it reads exactly 2 degrees negaitive, leading edge UP. I know I built it as per plans so, could it be the terminalogy of yesteryear?

Positive angle as per the debater, leading edge up which means negative incidence in todays terms referred to as positive 30 years ago

I'm really looking for someone to say I don't have to cut my stab off again here

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RE: WACO YMF - 2/28/2007 10:50 PM   
yel914



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Status: offline 		This adjustable stabilizer idea is looking better and better!

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