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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 12:30 AM   
DKjens



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Status: offline 		bax,
I you had the elevator servos connected to a channel in the PE that has two servo outlets, then that's the culprit. On the Small Fly PE, only the channels with five servo connections are fully amplified, the ones with two connections are not, and are nothing more than using a Y harness, but still with the servo to Rx separation the PE offers on all channels. I have 5995 servos in two 40% planes, one of them has two on each elevator half. I tried using one of the channels with two outputs, and the servos were dead, no movement. But if using a five outlet channel, everything was honky dory. If youfind that you did use a two outlet channel, your servos may have worked, due to shorter extensions and fewer total number of servos (I had 10 x 5995 connected) when voltage was up, but as you sent power to the other servos, the point came where the servos didn't work in this Y arrangement any more. As far as I know, the information about which channels are amplified and which are not, is in the manual that comes with the PE. If you had them plugged into a five outlet channel, the fault is elsewhere.

DKjens

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 1:54 AM   
Rcpilot


 

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Status: offline 		You know it's a bad crash when the TX hits the ground too.

I've seen a guy get so bent outta shap over crashing a 40 size plane that he flung the TX onto the concrete runway. I've seen a couple other people pull their arm back, as if they were going to chuck the TX, but they got hold of themselves before they actually threw it down.

Can't understand what that will accomplish. The wreck is over. Noone is hurt. It's just a toy. Expensive, but none the less--a toy.

Good for you. Maintain your sense of humor and move on.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 1:54 AM   
sillyness



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Yes... early model 5955s have problems with Futaba PCM signals. The signal from the RX (white wire, not power wires) is very weak, and if it is split falls below the threshold of a filter in the servo. There is a mod to replace a resistor in the servos with a new one... this makes the servo get along fine with Futaba PCM.

I just bought 10 5955s from servo city. I was told they all had the new resistor. They lied. I find that inexcusable, especially when safety is at stake.

Sorry for your loss.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 2:05 AM   
sillyness



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Status: offline 		Another note on the above topic...

The norm is that when two servos with the old resistors ate plugged into a Y, they don't work right out of the box. The fact that yours worked makes me think it was something else.

Personally, using the expander for both elevator halves creates a single point of failure and I wouldn't set a plane up like that. If any one connector or the expander fails you are hooped. Does the expander plug into a seperate power source (I don't know how they work... I don't add anything extra to my planes)? The servos can draw significant current. A standard RC plug (like the one between the expander and the RX) can only handle 3 amps (and gets very hot doing that under sustained conditions). By using 1 plug for both servos you are asking the plug to handle very high (up to 6 Amp) peak loads, resulting in very significant voltage drops.

As a minimum, I would run the servos into 2 seperate channels on the RX. I personally use 2 RXs and I use one servo on channel 3 on one RX and the other other channel 8 on the other RX. Since the plugs from the batts are the same as RC plugs, I plug 3 plugs from my regs into ea RX... eliminates voltage drops. I don't want to get into the RX debate though.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss... makes me sick to see a downed bird.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 2:12 AM   
Rcpilot


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyness

For those who don't know...

Yes... early model 5955s have problems with Futaba PCM signals. The signal from the RX (white wire, not power wires) is very weak, and if it is split falls below the threshold of a filter in the servo. There is a mod to replace a resistor in the servos with a new one... this makes the servo get along fine with Futaba PCM.

I just bought 10 5955s from servo city. I was told they all had the new resistor. They lied. I find that inexcusable, especially when safety is at stake.

Sorry for your loss.


Weak signal from the RX?

I could believe it. Here's why:
I use a lot of RamTec on-board glow igniters. I use Hitec RXs. Hitec RXs are made by Futaba.

You have to get a signal boosting extension to use the RamTec glow driver if your using a Hitec or Futaba RX. The manufacturer gives you the signal boosting extension for free.

I called him about this, and he was the one that told me the Hitec and Futaba RX are made by the same people. He said, about 3 or 4 yrs ago, they changed something inside the RX and the signal strength went down. It went down so much that his glow driver wouldn't work without a boosted extension.

Maybe there is some truth to the idea that the Futaba RX doesn't have a strong enough signal for these Hitecs?





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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 2:19 AM   
Flyfalcons



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ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

You know it's a bad crash when the TX hits the ground too.

I've seen a guy get so bent outta shap over crashing a 40 size plane that he flung the TX onto the concrete runway. I've seen a couple other people pull their arm back, as if they were going to chuck the TX, but they got hold of themselves before they actually threw it down.

Can't understand what that will accomplish. The wreck is over. Noone is hurt. It's just a toy. Expensive, but none the less--a toy.

Good for you. Maintain your sense of humor and move on.


You'd also hope they could come up with something a little more original, like a radio discus launch or a touchdown-esque spike. If you're gonna launch it, make it count.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 3:06 AM   
mu2driver



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Status: offline 		Bax sorry for the loss...I know how it feels to loose a nice plane...

Get another Yak...they are sooo nice!!! or the AW 260

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/23/2006 3:39 PM   
speed8


 

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Status: offline 		Fiyflcons That is so funny . If its going to go . You can just hope its something thats great to watch.
Baxs is one of my best friends and he did take it awhole lot better then I would have . He's already making plans and moving on to next one.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 4:45 AM   
Oh Yeah!!


 

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Status: offline 		Sorry for your loss Nick...

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 6:12 AM   
mglavin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rcpilet

Weak signal from the RX?

I could believe it. Here's why:
I use a lot of RamTec on-board glow igniters. I use Hitec RXs. Hitec RXs are made by Futaba.

You have to get a signal boosting extension to use the RamTec glow driver if your using a Hitec or Futaba RX. The manufacturer gives you the signal boosting extension for free.

I called him about this, and he was the one that told me the Hitec and Futaba RX are made by the same people. He said, about 3 or 4 yrs ago, they changed something inside the RX and the signal strength went down. It went down so much that his glow driver wouldn't work without a boosted extension.

Maybe there is some truth to the idea that the Futaba RX doesn't have a strong enough signal for these Hitecs?




Hitec RX's are NOT manufactured by Futaba!!! Whoever told you this is 100% wrong...

Futaba PCM RX's are not capable of providing adequate sinking "current" for early release revision v1.04 Hitec digitals when driving multiple servos form a single channel source. Other RX's don't seem to have this shortcoming... Hitec realized the shortcoming as noted and updated a resistor value which lowered the switching threshold value negating the problem with Futaba PCM RX's. That problem is only realized with Futaba PCM RX's...


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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 6:22 AM   
mglavin



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Status: offline 		Nick,

Sorry you lost a model.

You mentioned the servos held a neutral position, correct?

Did you load test the batteries? Or simply check voltage?

What size batteries and how many?

Whose regulators are in play and what type of switches?

Were the batteries freshly charged prior to committing the model to flight?

What servos were used for aileron, rudder?

Did you mention if rudder responded?

Were any of the servos programmed?

Did you check the power distribution system voltage under load operating and each servo(s) with a volt-ammeter after the initial setup and TX programming to validate the system was performing as required and to eliminate problems typically realized with binding and or over driving the servos with the TX resulting in excessive current draw?

< Message edited by mglavin -- 3/24/2006 8:13 AM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 7:22 AM   
Panzlflyer



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quote:

FUTABA PCM failures
sfunny the other day I was speaking to someone who was switching from JR due to failures.
I dont belive mine was due to a servo but a module out of tune and a component in the reciever.
The 5955s will lock up if the voltage drops, duplicated it enough times with a low battery in the programmer.
I have been given quite a few of the Hitec digitals that the owner claimed did not work and cannot find anything wrong with them, In fact even flew one of them but at 6v.
At 4.8 on a long extension anything can happen specially if using those 2700nimh with high impedance that are a favourite with some.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 7:56 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		Something noted in an earlier post about all the servos gone except the elevator servos. That kind of alluded to a thought that they may be re-used in the next model. DON'T DO THIS!!! regardless of the cause, every servo and receiver that was in the plane at the time of impact needs to be returned to the manufacturer for sevice. Even if a servo has all the appearances of normality after a crash, you can't believe what takes place inside the case during a crash. To prolong the life of your next model, please send all the electyrical stuff in for a check up.

Like all the others, it was troubling to hear of another crash not directly attributed to the fingers of the pilot. Sorry about the loss.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 8:22 AM   
crashdaly


 

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Status: offline 		Mglavin,
I'm running a Futaba PCM RX with 2 5955s elevators and 5945s ailerons (don't know the version) through a duralite power box am I ok with this setup or is the reciever still splitting the one channel (signal) between 2 servos ?

I am assuming that if you are going to have a conflict between the RX and the servos that you will be aware of it when you are setting them up because they will either work or not work ?



< Message edited by crashdaly -- 3/24/2006 8:25 AM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 8:33 AM   
shakes268



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Status: offline 		Hm, that brings up another question on the power expander though. Does it just do a pass through of the signal lead or does it do any kind of amplification? Could it actually lose strength if its a pass through?

Question on the 5955s when they do lock up due to low voltage - do they just go to neutral or do they lock in the last known position? I'm using one on my rudder and if it goes neutral thats fine (as long as I'm not in knife edge or something like that). However it locks at last known position similar to fail safe - that's just really bad.

< Message edited by shakes268 -- 3/24/2006 8:34 AM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 8:48 AM   
Banche


 

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Status: offline 		some of you guys are so unbelievably magniloquent it is sickening.

real soory about the crash though.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 8:56 AM   
mglavin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: crashdaly

Mglavin,
I'm running a Futaba PCM RX with 2 5955s elevators and 5945s ailerons (don't know the version) through a duralite power box am I ok with this setup or is the reciever still splitting the one channel (signal) between 2 servos ?

I am assuming that if you are going to have a conflict between the RX and the servos that you will be aware of it when you are setting them up because they will either work or not work ?



The Duralite PowerBox isolates and amplifies the control signal of each servo/channel output. It’s all good.

Yes, if you have a problem it’s noted forthwith.



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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 9:13 AM   
mglavin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: shakes268

Hm, that brings up another question on the power expander though. Does it just do a pass through of the signal lead or does it do any kind of amplification? Could it actually lose strength if its a pass through?

Question on the 5955s when they do lock up due to low voltage - do they just go to neutral or do they lock in the last known position? I'm using one on my rudder and if it goes neutral thats fine (as long as I'm not in knife edge or something like that). However it locks at last known position similar to fail safe - that's just really bad.



The Smart-Fly Power Expander buffers the four port servo/channel outputs only, the two port servo/channel outputs are un-buffered and pass thru I believe.

The term and or devices that are known as "buffers" typically isolate the signal source from the subsequent path. However BUFFERED preamplifiers are typically designed to isolate the source from the next stage of amplification. Buffer amps have high input impedances and low output impedances and can also feature some “gain” or signal boosting capability. That said if memory serves me I don't believe the Power-Expander amplifies the control signal.

When a Hitec digital servo realizes severe voltage degradation, approximately 3.0V the amplifiers reboot, much like your computer and or TX. The technology is one and the same for TX and Hitec digitals. The ROM must be accessed and subsequently initializes the micro-processor with stored data parameters. In my experience when a Hitec digital reboots the servo does the infamous hard over to full travel in one direction only.

For hard facts on Smart-Fly Products see the Smart-Fly forum here at RCU located in the Radio Forum under Manufacturers Direct Support. Bob Ritchy can answer any and all questions on these products...

< Message edited by mglavin -- 3/24/2006 9:17 AM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 1:47 PM   
Mrt1750



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quote:

When a Hitec digital servo realizes severe voltage degradation, approximately 3.0V the amplifiers reboot, much like your computer and or TX. The technology is one and the same for TX and Hitec digitals. The ROM must be accessed and subsequently initializes the micro-processor with stored data parameters. In my experience when a Hitec digital reboots the servo does the infamous hard over to full travel in one direction only.


If I understand you what your saying if the receiver see's 3 volts or less the chances are some servo will lock up please correct me if i'm wrong.

The way I set up all my control services is with the Hitec programmer and a digatal Volt Amp meter with the weight of the service bening set I look for .10 amps or less at idle and .5amps or less at full deflection for each servo. I also take several readings from idle to full deflection to make sure there sre no conflicts (binding) between idle and full deflection.

When all servo's are set up i hook the amp meter to the battery and take volt and amp reading at idle and full deflection this helps determine what type and how many packs will be needed, do you see any problems with this method.
Thanks

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 4:31 PM   
rctom



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Status: offline 		Offering my 2 cents, all logic points to a shortage of power to the elevator servos.

1. It never happened with 5945s, and suddenly when you change to 5955s you have this.

2. It was working again after the crash, which says that it was probably something associated with loads on the flight surfaces. Obviously they did not come unplugged or suffer a hard failure.

3. We know that low power on 5955s will cause them to go OOS momentarily.

4. The throttle servo still worked. This is the giveaway. The throttle requires the least amount of power of any servo, it's the one that will work when power is almost gone and nothing else works.

5. 5955s pull more current than 5945s, which would serve to confirm my theory that power to them was inadequate.

Odds are that other suggestions such as transmitter failure are just not correct.

TF

< Message edited by rctom -- 3/24/2006 4:33 PM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 4:37 PM   
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One my most recent set of digitals when I connected them to a Y and then to the programmer with low voltage one of them simply quit at near neutral.
They also do not go hard over when programming a reset like they used to.
I have done this with 5645, 5945s and 5955.
Programmer is recent update.

< Message edited by andyt -- 3/24/2006 4:39 PM >

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 7:06 PM   
mglavin



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quote:

ORIGINAL: andyt

mglavin
One my most recent set of digitals when I connected them to a Y and then to the programmer with low voltage one of them simply quit at near neutral.
They also do not go hard over when programming a reset like they used to.
I have done this with 5645, 5945s and 5955.
Programmer is recent update.


The programmer software update is the reason for the anomalies you describe as compared to earlier revisions with regard to "RESET".

I am not familiar with the results derived from driving two digitals with the programmer; I assume this was for set-up purposes only?


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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/24/2006 7:57 PM   
DKjens



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Status: offline 		I haven't seen a post from bax where he comes back and answers my question on which channel on the PE he used for the two elevator servos, did he use a two outlet or a five outlet? As I pointed out in the top of this page, and as Mike Glavin has pointed out, only the five outlet channels in the PE are fully amplified, the two outlets are more like a Y, possibly with the current amplified, but not the signal.
I would think this discussion is rather moot, until that gets answered, because it could explain the failure immediately, or it would tell us to look elsewhere.

DKjens

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/25/2006 12:21 AM   
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quote:

am not familiar with the results derived from driving two digitals with the programmer; I assume this was for set-up purposes only?


Setup only, I dont think its good to program them thru extensions of any sort.

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RE: Lost my 35% AM Yak Elevator failed.... - 3/25/2006 1:54 AM   
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