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HUH? - 12/20/2002 6:29:39 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Whistle in the graveyard???

Please explain

BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 51

Re: HUH? - 12/20/2002 6:49:39 AM   
ctdahle



Posts: 250
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Del Norte, CO, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Vargas
Whistle in the graveyard???

Please explain

BV [/QUOTE]

A colloquialism which means to engage in some sort of ineffectual behavior that makes you feel safe, but doesn't actually protect you from the swamp monster that is coming up from behind that gravestone to eat your eyeballs.

_____________________________

When I get a little money I buy model airplanes and if there is any left over, I buy food.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 52

Hmmm - 12/20/2002 7:05:35 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		OK.


So now back to the Original Question,,, what really caused the dues to increase?

Certainly not the size, the speed or the pilot at the controls,,,

Could it be, Inflation?


BV

_____________________________

If it ain't leaking oil, then something's wrong,,, USMC, RETIRED!

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 53

Re: Hmmm - 12/20/2002 7:45:37 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

Posts: 1669
Joined: 10/22/2002
From: Fair Oaks Ranch, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Vargas
OK.


So now back to the Original Question,,, what really caused the dues to increase?

Certainly not the size, the speed or the pilot at the controls,,,

Could it be, Inflation?


BV [/QUOTE]

Bill,
You are partly right, mostly right, and close to right all in one post!

The size and speed of any models covered under AMA insurance has absolutely nothing to do with the claims or the new insurance rates. However, the raw number of claims settled under the Self Insured Reserve has created a shortage in that fund that is created by our dues.

The insurance cost (secondary policy) has gone up, and will probably go up next year.

Inflation has not been addressed in several years.

The place where you are close to right has do to with unfunded Muncie development projects that finally got funded.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 54

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/20/2002 9:27:54 AM   
kwizard


 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline 		Well, there was alot of discussion, lots of info posted by a few, some digression (big vs. small aircraft) and some posts from individuals that were blowing a lot of smoke.............
Here's what I conclude from the info posted:

The AMA did in fact loose roughly ONE HALF OF A MILLION dollars in the stock market during 2001.

The AMA has probably lost a similar amount of money in the stock market during 2002, but nobody wants to admit that now, when the payment of the extra 20% dues is fresh on the minds of the membership. So we will have to wait for the audit results in May of 2003. (even though the EVP knows that figure now)

Despite the double talk about unallocated reserves & unrealized losses, these losses are REAL. If the AMA had to cash out these investments today, there would be $1,000,000 less than what was paid for them. That my friend is the classical definition of a LOSS ON INVESTMENT (and by the way, A HUGE LOSS AT THAT)

Regardless of the Captive Insurance Scheme, the Self Insurance Reserve has to be funded by REAL assets (cash, stocks, property, etc.) If the value of the asset "stocks" falls by 1 MILLION, this has to be made up by an increase in revenue somewhere else.
And can you guess where that increase might come from............

BINGO A 20% INCREASE IN DUES FOR YOU ME & THIS POOR YOUNG NEWCOMER THAT WE KEEP HEARING SO MUCH ABOUT!

INFLATION HAS BEEN ALL BUT NON EXISTANT DURING 2001/2002
SO DON'T GO THERE !

Sad , very sad...........probably even more sad next year.

KWIZARD

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 55

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/20/2002 1:40:51 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		KWIZARD

You are arguing semantics. Accounting terms have very definite meanings. Your definitions are not those used by accountants. I don't agree with your reasoning for the dues increase, but, your case is as good as any I can make. If all the facts and numbers about this investment issue, insurance costs and other improvements that the EC desires to finish are correct, the dues increase would have had to be closer to $20.

The value of the AMA's investments dropped by $407,000 in 2001. Call it what you will. Regardless of whether it is a real loss or a paper loss, as you say, IF they had liquidated it, the amount would have been lost. The key there is IF. I don't think anyone is happy that the investment lost value.

If you really want to know how much the investment has increased/decreased this year, pick up the phone and call Doug Holland. Otherwise, it's just speculation. It's possible (in my opinion unlikely) that the investments have increased in value this year.

If you are the AMA EVP, and had a few million dollars in cash to protect/invest, what would you do with it?

Did you vote in the election? If I may be so bold as to ask, if you voted, who did you vote for and why? I asked my wife, who knows nothing about the AMA, to look at the campaign statements for EVP. Her assessment was "One guy says he can't do the job, one guy says he doesn't want the job. The other says he can do it and wants to do it. Where is the choice?" After that, I was not surprised to see the results of the election.

What would you suggest be done? If this forum is going to have any value, solutions are as important as identifying problems. Keep in mind that at least a couple of VP's and several AVP's lurk and read this stuff. They are looking for good ideas.

JR

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 56

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/20/2002 6:00:52 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7727
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		While I agree that Mr. Barry's statement was Ra, Ra, Holland he is our man. I disagree that Mr. Cain's statement said he couldn't do the job. However I think that he should have been more clear that a CPA is not required for the position. Many CFO's of corporations are not CPA's. They are almost always businessmen. While a CPA will know how to book a profit or loss, some know little about how to make a profit. A businessman should know how to make a profit, and will understand the reports the CPA's provide. I am sure the AMA employ's CPA's, either on their payroll, or by contract, or most likely both.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 57

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/21/2002 8:41:41 AM   
kwizard


 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline 		JR

Regarding your comment "Accountants definitions differ from yours"

I am an accountant, retired now, but was a corporate accountant for 26 years.

A loss is still a loss, even if not realized.
Do you not consider the drop in your 401K plan a loss, if not, you are delusional.

I voted, & didn't vote for any incumbents.

On investments, I don't think the AMA should be in any speculative investments. They may have looked like heros in the late 90's, but they look like gamblers now.
If the AMA had invested in safe investments that guarantee principal retention, such as Treasury Bills, Strips back in the late 90's, they could have staggered maturities & still be earning 7 to 8% per year. Far exceeding todays inflation rates.

In this case, dues might still have had to go up, say $1 or $2
a year, and perhaps more if a worthwhile project was being funded. But, this is not how it was handled, they gambled with our dues, and they lost. Now we pay.

That's how an accountant sees it.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 58

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/21/2002 12:07:25 PM   
Live Wire


 

Posts: 3790
Joined: 11/20/2002
From: Sterling , CO, USA
Status: online 		AMA is a great organization all they have to do is get back on track. They are not stock brokers. Use our funds as they are to be used not as an investment. This is to be the promtion of model aviation not to line some ones pocket.

_____________________________

Larry K AMA 36417
WACO Brotherhood #34

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 59

More questions - 12/21/2002 8:50:37 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		kwizard

Are you saying that the doubling of the insurance policy cost, from about $250,000 to about $500,000 and the increase in the SIR costs would be covered by a $2 raise in the dues? Keep in mind that there are about 140,000 adult members covering those costs. The additional 30,000 youth members do not contribute anything toward covering any costs.

How would you cover the costs of projects that were not completed due to deficit budgeting? Each year the EC has been putting off accruing depreciation on some items. kwizard, have you looked at the 2001 audit in the members only section of the AMA site, or did you see the numbers in MA? The auditor's notes bring several questions up. Some are hard to answer without the underlying documents. I sure would be interested in your opinion, being an accountant. The EC minutes of each meeting are also on the site, and show a pattern for the justification of the dues increase. Have you read them also?

There is some justification for your number. Dave Brown originally set the goal for the dues increase at about $4, then it was raised to $7 after a couple of months. In the final EC meeting the number became $10 with the hopes of not having a dues increase for some time to come.

RC Outlaw said :

"This is to be the promotion of model aviation not to line some ones pocket."

RC Outlaw, would you explain the how's and why's of that statement? Maybe I am misreading the intent of what you said.

JR

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 60

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/21/2002 8:55:08 PM   
Rich-RCU



Posts: 46
Joined: 11/29/2001
From: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R


I asked my wife, who knows nothing about the AMA, to look at the campaign statements for EVP. Her assessment was "One guy says he can't do the job, one guy says he doesn't want the job. The other says he can do it and wants to do it. Where is the choice?" After that, I was not surprised to see the results of the election.

JR [/QUOTE]

JR, how did you do that? How did you do the same exact thing I did. And how did your wife respond with almost the same exact words? You listening to our conversations? (Grin)

Seriously, I also showed the campaign statements to a friend who is a respected CPA and AMA dumb who basically said the same

Rich Sanchez

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 61

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/21/2002 9:07:42 PM   
bpannier



Posts: 177
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Status: offline 		KWIZARD..I agree 100% with you and atempted to make the points that you have made weeks ago, but failed to do so. Whould have sent this private but you wanted no emails. I can only coment for 10 more days as after 50 years I have deceided not to renew with AMA and to go with UMA. When SFA was around kept both AMA & SFA as I felt both were promoting our hobby.

_____________________________

73s Bud. AMA 739, WB7NDL

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 62

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/22/2002 3:37:15 AM   
kwizard


 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I got the same message in your profile.

What is UMA and can you attend AMA events?

To JR,

Since you asked my some personal questions in a previous post, may I do the same to you...........

Who did you vote for in the past election?

Do you think it's ok for the AMA to enter into speculative investments?

Do you have any position with the AMA besides being a member?

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 63

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/22/2002 4:12:32 AM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		kwizard

I nominated and voted for Horrace Cain for EVP.

I have mixed emotions about being involved in the stock market. I tend to think that Treasury bonds would have been a better investment, although there are those that would say that the bonds are speculative as well. I feel strongly that the AMA investments should be vested in a committee, and not in the hands of one person, whatever the investments might be.

My positions within the AMA are as a Leader Member and a CD. I have no interest in holding any political office.

Jean-Pierre Rondot (JR)
AMA 732
LM/CD

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 64

What really caused the dues increase? - 12/22/2002 4:45:27 AM   
bpannier



Posts: 177
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
Status: offline 		UMA. United Modelers of America ([url]www.unitedmodelers.com[/url]) is a Insurance provider for flyers the same as Sport Flyers was. No magazine etc. No you can not participate in AMA contests or Clubs, But it does give you Insurance and lets you fly at open fields. It does not replace what AMA does which is good...but I feel is an organization that need change in leadership...term limits. and to make EVERY ONE WELCOME not just those that pay up...they will join after the see the good AMA has done in the past before it became another insrance company.
I have voted in all the elections every year, even ran for Dist X VP,
knowing that an unknowen from Utah was dead in the water. Have been a leader member and CD for forty years. Localy worked to get 4 flying fields in local area ( only one still is advaialable) and made all of them for all flyers not a selected AMA group. Donated money to AMA other than dues. Made a trip to Muncie to discuss what I felt was AMAs short comings to be left standing with my wife after an hour we left.(yes I did have a appointment) so all that I have attemped to do will not create any changes so I give up and will continue to enjoy sport flying a a field where every one is welcome..........and I can not complain after Dec 31,2002 as I will no longer be a member.

_____________________________

73s Bud. AMA 739, WB7NDL

(in reply to kwizard)