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What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 1:35:21 AM   
Red Scholefield



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From: Newberry, FL, USA
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JR said;

". There is a large portion of it's members that are not computer literate, nor are they ever likely to be. We absolutely can not afford to lose the knowledge of those members. "

AMA survey indicated 74% of the membership has internet access.
It also says that nearly 50% are in the 55 and up catagory.

In this part of the world (AKA God's waiting room) it is now rare to find another modeler (under 65) that does not have and use the internet frequently. More Sr.s in both clubs I belong to have and use e-mail than the younger ones. So please, don't blame the AMA's lack of use of modern communicaton technology on the OFs, just those OFs that have nothing better to do than serve on the EC for life.

Red S.
AMA951
Leader Member/CD

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 151

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 1:47:41 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by redscho
JR said;

". There is a large portion of it's members that are not computer literate, nor are they ever likely to be. We absolutely can not afford to lose the knowledge of those members. "

AMA survey indicated 74% of the membership has internet access.
It also says that nearly 50% are in the 55 and up catagory.

In this part of the world (AKA God's waiting room) it is now rare to find another modeler (under 65) that does not have and use the internet frequently. More Sr.s in both clubs I belong to have and use e-mail than the younger ones. So please, don't blame the AMA's lack of use of modern communicaton technology on the OFs, just those OFs that have nothing better to do than serve on the EC for life.

Red S.
AMA951
Leader Member/CD
[/QUOTE]

Red,

I hope that membership can be changed soon.

However, I also have reason to think that survey was corrupted by bad data, bad questions, and bad selections of respondents. That does not mean the survey was all wrong, just that it came to the wrong conclusions through bad manipulation of bad data brought by bad questions.

I know for a fact that there is at least one portion of the survey where several of the other respondents I have talked to did as I and gave bad data intentionally. There were questions asked that the AMA has no legitimate reason for knowing the answers to, so we clobbered that section with strawman answers. That may or may not carry over into the whole survey, I do not know.

I know enough of proper survey technique to say that we did not get the value we expected from that survey. Nor am I surprised.

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 152

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 1:54:59 AM   
J_R


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by redscho
So please, don't blame the AMA's lack of use of modern communicaton technology on the OFs, just those OFs that have nothing better to do than serve on the EC for life.

Red S.
AMA951
Leader Member/CD
[/QUOTE]

LOL

See Red, after 6 attempts your 'older' VP still can't figure out how to receive an e-mail. I wonder if he needs his picture in color so he can find his column. I am certain he can not find it from the pictures of very, very important people he inserts every month. I bet he promptly forgets who they are after he sends the column to the printer. Maybe he finds his column by finding the enlightening information he shares in his position as Frequency Coordinator. Do you suppose that he does not fill the position for the simple reason that he does not know what a frequency is? Maybe he thinks that the Frequency Coordinator has something to do with his need to go to the bathroom and does not see the need for one on a District basis.

Maybe we not only should keep MA, but have it hand delivered to him with a guide to show him his picture. You just made my point in spades.

JR

P.S. in all seriousness, it's the other 26 percent I'm concerned about.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 153

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 2:23:05 AM   
Red Scholefield



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With the suspect accuracy of the AMA Survey numbers I checked further and found an interesting site re: Sr.s and the internet.

If anyone is interested it can be seen at:
http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/pdfs/PIP_Wired_Seniors_Report.pdf

My take for it is that there are less Sr.s than I thought, BUT a much higher level of Sr.s depending on income, and education - of course regardless of income or education I put modeling Sr.s in the higher category - people with a high degree of technical interest.

One thing that it did bring up is that a significant number of the 55 to 65 group are internet connected and this is the growing number from which our membership will probably be drawn from in the next decade. Which makes the AMA's decisions on using this medium all that more important to the growth of the organization.

Red S. AMA 951
Leader Member/CD

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 154

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 3:36:36 AM   
sandrew


 

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[COLOR=red]It really seems pathetic to complain about the AMA dues... $58 and you get an appx $25 value subscription, insurance you couldn't buy for $50 a month on your own, representation with the FCC to keep the current R/C frequencies (the cell phone people WANT them!) organization of national events, competition records and special achievement records (such as the longest durration and closed course distance...) and a museum of the hobby/sport that may eventually rival the Smithsonian Air Museum... [/COLOR]




fhhuber,
It is NOT the money, it is time for change. Not enough new faces in administration and young faces. The magazine is an OLD medium of communication. Those who aren't computer literate should be because it is here to stay. And why aren't they, because they don't like change. Every library in the country has computer services plus FREE educational tools. Age has nothing to with it, my 78 year old mother found web use a lot less expensive than long distant phone calls, not to mention paying bills with some elaborate financial tools. Cost I don't think so.

Marc is right! National flying field NEEDS TO GO. I can't believe it cost less than the old building. An who cares about the rivaling the Smithsonian. I would rather see the money used to help clubs expand their local flying fields.

Vince Presley said "the AMA is for the Majority, the Majority that votes that is" and this is the sentiment of AMA. The rest of us pay the way for a select few living in the past.

Voting should be done electronically with supporting information. Such as FULL discloser of the financial statements that tells who received a portion of the $1,852,514.00* and what they do to earn this money? Break down of future expenses, what the Smithsonian is doing, etc..This discloser helps all to understand where the money goes.

Since EN RON no one and I mean no one can be trusted!!!! I don't care how many votes they received, Vince. AMA offers PARTIAL discloser but you have to pay $5.00 for a paper copy. For nothing they could e-mail off of their hard drive with 3 key move and cost nothing. They could even send it to everyone at the same time. Try that with a magazine.

I love flying planes and love promoting this hobby, but I hate the idea that it only contributes to the majority, the majority that votes that is.

*partial discloser of December 31, 2001 Operating Expense


Andy

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 155

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 3:45:26 AM   
Red Scholefield



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Do you think that perhaps the EC does not trust the yahoos that have nothing better to do than grouse about how the AMA is run and the shortcomings of some EC members. Maybe they are paying attention to the mandate from the majority that thinks they are doing just fine and don't even bother to find out what they are doing or vote with any knowledge other than if they have been doing it this long they must be doing it right.

Red S. AMA 951
Leader Member/CD
Dist V

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 156

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 4:16:52 AM   
J_R


 

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[QUOTE]
fhhuber,
It is NOT the money, it is time for change. Not enough new faces in administration and young faces. The magazine is an OLD medium of communication. Those who aren't computer literate should be because it is here to stay. And why aren't they, because they don't like change. Every library in the country has computer services plus FREE educational tools. Age has nothing to with it, my 78 year old mother found web use a lot less expensive than long distant phone calls, not to mention paying bills with some elaborate financial tools. Cost I don't think so.

Marc is right! National flying field NEEDS TO GO. I can't believe it cost less than the old building. An who cares about the rivaling the Smithsonian. I would rather see the money used to help clubs expand their local flying fields.

Vince Presley said "the AMA is for the Majority, the Majority that votes that is" and this is the sentiment of AMA. The rest of us pay the way for a select few living in the past.

Voting should be done electronically with supporting information. Such as FULL discloser of the financial statements that tells who received a portion of the $1,852,514.00* and what they do to earn this money? Break down of future expenses, what the Smithsonian is doing, etc..This discloser helps all to understand where the money goes.

Since EN RON no one and I mean no one can be trusted!!!! I don't care how many votes they received, Vince. AMA offers PARTIAL discloser but you have to pay $5.00 for a paper copy. For nothing they could e-mail off of their hard drive with 3 key move and cost nothing. They could even send it to everyone at the same time. Try that with a magazine.

I love flying planes and love promoting this hobby, but I hate the idea that it only contributes to the majority, the majority that votes that is.

*partial discloser of December 31, 2001 Operating Expense


Andy
[/QUOTE]

Andy,

This may appear to be aimed at you personally. I assure you it is not and I don't need any more detractors.

It is very obvious that you have jumped into the middle of a thread and have not bothered to read what has transpired in the thread. You are not the first and you won't be the last to do this. I offer as proof the recently posted threads in this forum, which also seek to start the same discussion over... and over... and over. I won't tell you what part, but, I assure you that one of your complaints will be resolved to your satisfaction, if you take the time to read the thread. You seem like someone with a genuine interest in the subject. Please?

On a point that has not been discussed: The AMA had a display at the Smithsonian which was pulled by the AMA.

JR

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 157

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 4:18:15 AM   
Jim Branaum


 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by redscho
Do you think that perhaps the EC does not trust the yahoos that have nothing better to do than grouse about how the AMA is run and the shortcomings of some EC members. Maybe they are paying attention to the mandate from the majority that thinks they are doing just fine and don't even bother to find out what they are doing or vote with any knowledge other than if they have been doing it this long they must be doing it right.

Red S. AMA 951
Leader Member/CD
Dist V
[/QUOTE]

Red,
You are absolutely right. In fact some of the EC have even been told that there is a name for those who ask questions or grouse about errors. They call us "AMA bashers".

_____________________________

Jim Branaum AMA 1428

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 158

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 4:53:38 AM   
RCadmin



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From: Belle Mead, NJ, USA
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Written above is that the AMA's function is to support aeromodeling. Ok...What support do we need? What support do they give to us?

I go to the flying field which is a local park. I need a park permit and AMA insurance card to fly there. In 26 years other than the frequency lobbying of what a decade or more ago what have they done to support myself or the average AMA member? I've not seen them step in as I watched three (3) flying fields of mine go away. How do contests support aeromodeling? Nobody at my club goes to the nats. What about fun fly's and scale meets? The AMA does not get involved in these and does not need to be involved other than providing coverage. Remember...we are talking about most of the clubs here in the US.

What percentage of the AMA membership uses or benefits from anything the AMA does other than the insurance? I'll bet 100 to 1 if the AMA sent out a survey to members as to what the AMA means for them and does for them that 90%+ comes back INSURANCE! Joe average member wants only insurance. AMA is not supporting us in other ways by holding contests for the select few. Manufacturers who make product for us to buy support this hobby.

Support of aeromodeling is NOT done by the AMA. The contest rules can be handled by any 3rd party that wants to set them up. Heck...break off the rule making body of the AMA into a for profit entity spinoff and be done with it. Cold hard facts and my 26+ years in the hobby and all the guys I've ever flown with see the AMA as the 'INSURANCE COMPANY' and nothing more. At my field and the bulk of them in the US that is all they are to most. Yes to the small minority they are of importance for contests but why should 90% of AMA members foot the bill for that? That building and site were not a good idea for the bulk of AMA members. That's my opinion and I'd bet it is shared by most.

What benefit is the AMA nats to this hobby? Never once here in NJ have I ever read any press or PR on the AMA or the NATS. I'm sure it is big news in Muncie but guess what there is a whole world outside of that town. What benefit is it to me to pay the huge expenses to send the NATS team all over creation? I know the 100 guys at my field could care less. Is my club the exception or the rule?

As for conservative investments...how about tax free municipal A rated bonds for security or other less risky investments. There are bonds backed up by municipal or state revenue streams like highway tolls...only a risk if people stop driving...all different ways to invest that money or put it aside for claims.

Just a few of my rantings....I'm not one for politics...I hate it...but I am one for common sense and treating people fair and when I see in my heart of hearts that this is not the case I gotta step in and do what I believe to be right.

There will always be those who say "who cares...it's only $58" and can't be bothered...nothing wrong with that if that is their choice. They minimize how little it is and how much is spent on this hobby. Yet those same people get 100 times the benefit from RCU that the AMA provides them by selling $1000's worth of stuff here or spending hours very day burning bandwidth in the discussions yet never send even $5 or more in to support this site. I would hazard to say that RCU provides more than $5 in value every year to each person who uses it often then the value the $58 from the AMA brings. I've never had a single claim to the ama so every year I have to pay it so I can fly at these fields. I'd care less if I at least knew every dollar was spent wisely.

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
Visit RCU''s New Banner Free E-flight Only Website: www.WattFlyer.com

(in reply to kwizard)
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Just a touch of AMA history - 1/9/2003 7:28:40 AM   
J_R


 

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Marc

I think it is time for everyone to have a refresher course in AMA history 101

From the By-laws of the AMA:

Purposes
Subject to the limitations set forth in the Academy of Model
Aeronautics, Inc., Articles of Incorporation, the primary object of the
AMA is to promote and foster educational and scientific advancement
in model aeronautics, to give recognition to model leadership and to
provide guidance and direction of national model aeronautic affairs by
those individuals who, through their accomplishments in the model
field, have demonstrated their qualifications for such responsibility.
More particular purposes are listed below, but shall not be considered
exclusive.
(a)To encourage the study and discussion of scientific problems
and to disseminate scientific news and views.
(b)To organize and sponsor discussion conferences and the presentation
of technical papers at such conferences.
(c)To encourage through recognition, leadership in model aeronautics.
(d)To recognize leadership of unusual quality by the conferring of
special honorary titles.
(e)To encourage joint discussion directed toward group agreement
on development needs relating to model aviation.
(f)To keep model leaders informed through the publication of scientific
journals and news bulletins.
(g)To encourage the contribution of articles on the development of
model aeronautics for the AMA publication.
(h)To associate interested organizations and individuals for group
support of education and development needs related to model aeronautics.
(i)To guide and direct national model activities to the end that
model aeronautics may be advanced in the United States in a manner
that will best serve model aviation as a whole.
(j)To guide and assist in the acquisition and retention of flying sites
officially sanctioned competitions and records which are conducted
by AMA Contest Directors.
(o)To have as its guiding principle, Of, By, and For the Model
Airplane Enthusiast.
(p)To operate through the National Aeronautic Association in representing
all activities of United States Aeromodeling to the FAI,
such operation to be in accordance with a written agreement
between AMA and NAA.

Marc, you will notice that the word insurance is nowhere to be found.

Back about 1960 the AMA had about 10,000 members when Johnny Clemens, then the AMA President, came up with the idea of providing insurance to the membership.

In spite of the fact that the insurance has become the financial engine driving the AMA, the principles on which it was based remain unchanged.

If what you desire is an organization that only sells insurance, they are already in existence, or you might want to start over. If you are not interested in the principles of the AMA, why mess with it?

JR

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What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 7:39:35 AM   
P-51B



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JR, that pretty much sums it up I'd say.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

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Now to the rest of your points, Marc - 1/9/2003 8:33:01 AM   
J_R


 

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Marc

Let's review some of your allegations. First, let's look at the loss of fields in your area. Do you know why they were lost? Did a landlord pass away? Did the property become to valuable too use as a flying field? Did leases expire? Let's now look at the way many fields are lost. The come under attack by neighbors. Maybe for sound, maybe as being dangerous. The governmental agency involved calls a hearing. The club leader's, thinking they know how to handle it go in. In a real case near me, they took a trainer in to make their point and were met with questions like: "well, how big CAN they get? How noisy CAN they be? How dangerous CAN they be? The club leaders are ill equipped to answer such questions and did a lot of damage to their cause. Instead, they should be contacting the AMA immediately and requesting assistance. But, no. They wait until the closing is imminent and then call the AMA. There is nothing left to do but send lawyers.
At that point, you can imagine that the success rate is substantially lower in saving the field. Why did it happen? Simply put, the leaders did not pay attention to the information sent to them or written in MA. So, who is to blame? The people and the mechanism are there to try to save fields. You can take a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

Now to your questionnaire. Why do you think you would get a 90% return? The AMA sent out a questionnaire a few months ago to every member on an important issue and got a 15% return.

Bonds, like stock, change in value with interest rates. The money that is available is in reserve. If it is needed it is quite possible that you would need to sell bonds that were not mature and would be at the mercy of the market, just as stocks are. If you bought bonds, and the value of the bonds on the market went down, and that was reported on the financial statement, would you consider it a loss? Even it they were not sold at the lower price? Where is the difference between that and an unrealized loss on stocks?

Having made my points, Marc, you know I do not think the AMA is perfect and that it does need some fixing. I think the open discussion of the problems and potential fixes is just what the AMA needs.

JR

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 162

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/9/2003 8:44:33 AM   
RCadmin



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JR,

Ok...the 90% return I meant 90% vote in favor...not returned ballots..I was unclear on that point.

Next, the by-laws that the AMA were based on were done back in 1960 if I read you right. If that is the case they are 40 years old and need to be revisited and changed. It might even benefit the ama financially for the better interests of it's members to become a for profit entity. No magazine needed anymore and you can supply the 95% or 99% whatever the number is that only needs the AMA for insurance with just such a product. The AMA now serves the needs of minority with all those by-laws. They are garbage. Go to any flying field and read those off to the members and ask them how much of that they have seen out of the AMA or how much they even need that stuff in 2003. After they are done laughing ask them what they really need from the AMA. Their answer will be insurance. You stated a company that does insurance only exists but they don't have the critical mass of the AMA. Why use a new or separate company when you can overhaul an existing company quite easily and make it lean, mean and more in line what the membership at large needs in this new century.

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
Visit RCU''s New Banner Free E-flight Only Website: www.WattFlyer.com