Re: Re: Vote in RCadmin's poll  
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Re: Re: Vote in RCadmin's poll - 1/10/2003 9:40:43 PM   
ghost_rider



Posts: 4266
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B


Thanks JR, I haven't decided if I should participate in such a poll so ludicrous and so far from scientific that anyone with a computer that may not even belong to the AMA can vote in, or not [/QUOTE]

Hmmmmmm!!!!!!

I wonder how many people "with a computer that may not even belong to the AMA" visit this site.

What I'm trying to say is that IMOHO, the reason not to vote as stated above is flimsy and lame. (No pun intended)

FWIW, I 100% agree with Marc's eloquent statements in the previous post.

Ben
AMA # 9119

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 176

Re: Re: Re: Vote in RCadmin's poll - 1/10/2003 10:06:33 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghost_rider


Hmmmmmm!!!!!!

I wonder how many people "with a computer that may not even belong to the AMA" visit this site.

What I'm trying to say is that IMOHO, the reason not to vote as stated above is flimsy and lame. (No pun intended)

FWIW, I 100% agree with Marc's eloquent statements in the previous post.

Ben
AMA # 9119 [/QUOTE]

on point 1. Exactly the point of why the poll is not valid...HOW MANY?

on point 2. It just your opinion, didn't ask for it! (also, what pun?)

On point3. To each his own.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 177

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/10/2003 10:12:26 PM   
RCadmin



Posts: 13181
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Belle Mead, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		P51B - have you ever had a course in polling or statistics to make such a statement? I did...I got an A in the course at Rutgers. Even got one of the highest grades in the class that year out of over 100 students. Contrary to your statement this poll is statistically significant with a specific calculated margin of erro and with each vote made becomes that much more accurate as its sample size increases.

That said I haven't checked it since yesterday...wonder how it's doing..

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
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(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 178

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/10/2003 10:15:22 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by RCadmin
Like

Next....as far as polls are concerned I took statistics in college and for those statisticians out there you all know that you can determine what is considered a viable sample size and poll and what the accuracy is based on the number of votes in a group. The fact that members here are internet users does not make this sample invalid. If we don't get enough people to place a vote then the accuracy will be lower. I haven't checked the latest numbers yet but I know we will get a good idea of what the membership wants and while some will not believe it, some will argue internet voting AMA members don't count for whatever reason it is because they don't want to believe it or change the status quo to drastically. Unfortunately this old school mentality has gone on so long that drastic change IS now in order.

[/QUOTE]

Gee, I took Statistics in college too, but what I recall is that if you want statistically significant samples from say, group A, you can't get that by polling, say, group B. In this case group A is the AMA and Group B is RCU. The fact that people are internet users is not the question. The POINT is JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE IS LOGGED ONTO THE INTERNET (RCU)DOESN'T MAKE THEM A MEMBER OF THE AMA! Since you cannot assure that only AMA members vote, the poll is useless.

As a help, in basic logic class 101 you often hear this.

If it is raining there are clouds, but that does not mean if there are clouds it is raining!

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 179

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/10/2003 10:25:17 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by RCadmin
P51B - have you ever had a course in polling or statistics to make such a statement? I did...I got an A in the course at Rutgers. Even got one of the highest grades in the class that year out of over 100 students. Contrary to your statement this poll is statistically significant with a specific calculated margin of erro and with each vote made becomes that much more accurate as its sample size increases.

That said I haven't checked it since yesterday...wonder how it's doing.. [/QUOTE]

You are making assumptions. Based on the method you are using it could be that with each vote that margin of error increases.

Let me ask, if you poll 100 AMA members about the Opinion of ama members your margin of error is pretty low, but if you poll 99 non-ama members and 1 AMA member about the opinions of ama members your margin of error is large.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 180

Poll - 1/10/2003 10:28:58 PM   
J_R


 

Posts: 4446
Joined: 1/4/2002
From: Corona, CA,
Status: offline 		My complaint is not with the sample size or those who are taking part, but with the wording of the question and answers, and the placement in the Clubhouse, rather than in AMA forum.

All that being said, it is becoming apparent, bad wording and all that only about 16% are "insurance only" responses.

Marc, at some point, you are going to have to use your 'yellow post' area to promote it again. The 'crash of the system news' is going to slow responses for a while. I haven't looked, but, it would seem reasonable to point them to the AMA forum and then to respond to the poll, and to request their vote in every forum on RCU.

JR

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 181

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/10/2003 11:05:09 PM   
RCadmin



Posts: 13181
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Belle Mead, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		JR - yes...I will use the sitewid sticky after tonight...just wanted to make sure those who lost anything in the 3 or 4 hours from yesterday knew why...thanx

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
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(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 182

Re: Re: Re: Re: Vote in RCadmin's poll - 1/11/2003 1:00:23 AM   
ghost_rider



Posts: 4266
Joined: 12/11/2001
From: Ft Wayne, IN, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by P-51B


on point 1. Exactly the point of why the poll is not valid...HOW MANY?

[/QUOTE]

Am I missing something here? Let me rephrase it so you can understand. I believe that 99.999%of the people that participate in this forum must have something to do with modeling and hence an affiliation with AMA.

With more than 21K members here on RCU, any poll of AMA will be a good representation of what AMA members feels about AMA.

With that many members, we are larger than any individual AMA SIG group out there and we represent different areas of the modeling community.

In consideration with the forgoing and not withstanding anything I've stated above to the contrary, I rest my case.

Ben
AMA #9119

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 183

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Vote in RCadmin's poll - 1/11/2003 1:17:08 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7652
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghost_rider


Am I missing something here? Let me rephrase it so you can understand. I believe that 99.999%of the people that participate in this forum must have something to do with modeling and hence an affiliation with AMA.

Ben
AMA #9119 [/QUOTE]

I hope not. I would certainly hope that a large number of people on this site are prospective AMA members who are just thinking of getting into this hobby.

Even if all RCU people also belong to the AMA, would non computer savvy members have the same opinion as those on this site? I don't know that they do.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 184

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/11/2003 1:46:26 AM   
RCadmin



Posts: 13181
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Belle Mead, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		one would think that the ownership of a computer or the fact one is on the internet would not have a significant effect on the outcome of a poll like this. That is like saying if you own ford versus chevy the outcome of this poll is skewed.

There is no causal relationship where ownership of a computer or being online would affect anything other than the fact that you COULD vote on this. I don't see how being online sways ones opinion. Same thing could go for all the AMA member polls than to date...if they didn't do them online or at least both online and in print then their results are all skewed because the voters only represent those who are not on the internet. Is this the argument you are trying to make regarding this? I feel most would agree with me that the ownership of a computer and being online are not the basis of which results would be skewed.

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
Visit RCU''s New Banner Free E-flight Only Website: www.WattFlyer.com

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 185

R/C Universe Poll not truely reflective of anything ! - 1/11/2003 10:33:44 AM   
vpresley



Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2002
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Status: offline 		The poll here on R/C universe is not truly reflective anything, about anything. You can't read anything into it, or divine anything from it. You can interpret it to mean anything you want it too mean, as some people do. Its like the laws of many countries and states. There are people who will always say they know what it means, and of course they will happily tell you what that is as often as they can. Luckily this poll is meaningless, unless of course your doing the interpreting, and then trying to convince everyone else what it means to you. The poll is so much horse dookie, yes horse dookie. Interpret that to mean what you want it too, either way you know what I mean. The sampling is small, the voters unknown and oh yeah, to many assumptions are being made by those pretending to know what they are talking about. Lets call it the horse dookie poll.

Vince

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 186

What really caused the dues increase? - 1/11/2003 12:17:23 PM   
RCadmin



Posts: 13181
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Belle Mead, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		Thank you vince. Would it be the same way if the results were more to your liking? Can I ask what you voted to ensure you have no bias that it might not be going your way?

I'm all for the AMA polling their members and bringing in a professional statistician to handle it all. Will they do that for this question? They have done this for other questions so this one seems far more important to the future of the AMA considering this is what people say they want.

People can determine for themselves what this poll means and what they feel is valid about it. I'll leave it at that.

_____________________________

Marc
RCU Site Admin
RCU Videos. Free Video Sharing. - www.rcuvideos.com
Visit RCU''s New Banner Free E-flight Only Website: www.WattFlyer.com

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 187

Re: Just a touch of AMA history - 1/11/2003 2:02:00 PM   
FHHuber



Posts: 4931
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: gone, , USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by J_R

Back about 1960 the AMA had about 10,000 members when Johnny Clemens, then the AMA President, came up with the idea of providing insurance to the membership.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry... Inaccurate.

I've got the "Flying Aces" issue (from I believe 1939!) where the AMA initially offered an OPTIONAL insurance program aimed initially at flyers of gas powered FF models. This insurance program has continued and grown ever since. The insurance was a part of the AMA programs virtually from the beginning.

In appx 1940, the gas "licence" (insurance) became required for flying a gas powered model at any AMA event.

I don't have the date when the AMA quit having 2 different dues levels for operators of glow/gas powered models vs rubber power/gliders.

I don't have the date for when the AMA quit having a separate charge for the "FAI Stamp" allowing an AMA member to compete internationally. (The FAI membership is now included in AMA membership) The FAI Stamp cost MORE than the AMA membership did in the late 1970's...

I've also got previous issues which discuss the NEED for modelers to have insurance dating BEFORE the AMA existed.

At one time... the AMA was considered to have virtually the same relationship to model aircraft as the CAA had with full full scale aircraft! As a subsidiary of the NAA (which is a subsidiary of FAI, and still exists) the AMA had (and may still have...) some Federal regulatory authority.

(in reply to kwizard)
       Post #: 188

Poll is just inaccurate, and not truly reflective of an... - 1/12/2003 12:34:46 AM   
vpresley



Posts: 145
Joined: 2/26/2002
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Status: offline 		The most important aspect, as I have stated is, you can't use the poll to make sweeping generalizations about anything. I wouldn't pretend to use this poll against the AMA or anyone else for that matter, to prove or disprove my own opinions about anything. For all those who don't like the AMA, GET OUT !!! And do what ever it is you wanna do !! Start your own little "Dont Like the AMA Club". OR, here's the real trick, work within the AMA to improve it. For too long I have listened to all the whiner's, cryer's and other misfits who want there own little way. I say GET OUT !!! The AMA is for ALL Model Aviation, not just one little corner of someone's world. The AMA's magazine reflects this. It's for everyone, and cover's a wide range of modeling subjects. So join in, tune-in and make a difference or, don't join in, tune-out, and do what ever you want. Its up to you, isn't it .