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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 8:39:22 PM   
Ken Erickson



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Forgot to mention that we will encourage Sport Quickie when we get several people hooked and ready.

Ken, AMA 19352

(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 26

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 11:29:45 PM   
jawelsh


 

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Sign me up Ken!

How about supporting a District VIII race this year. We have a couple dates that are open at the end of the summer? Interested?

Thanks,

John

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       Post #: 27

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 3:32:46 AM   
daven



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I wasn't trying to be defensive in my first post, I really want to see racing survive down the road. Maybe we should be looking at developing a new class of racing that hopefully can help keep costs to a minimum and let the pilot decide the race.

I've brought it up before, but another idea might be SPAD type racing with sport engines on a smaller course. I don't have a great affection for spads, but they can survive a midair, are easy to build, and cheap. They also limit your ability to modify like some of the wood / fiberglass stuff out there.

Long term, I think that electrics are the way to go, but with technology developing so quickly there, I'm not sure we are ready for it.

I love 428/422 racing, but want to be able to enjoy it 10 years from now. I also don't like change, but if thats what it takes to attract and maintain racing, I'm all for it.

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to jawelsh)
       Post #: 28

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 4:35:41 AM   
kommander


 

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where is Guatalahabra? If it's close to LA and your flying 424 there is a race April 20th? at the basin.

(in reply to Lifes a Drag)
       Post #: 29

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 12:58:25 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Formula One died for a number of reasons, cost was certainly one of them. When I started racing it, glow plugs cost 50 cents or less, and by the time it died, people were using GlowBees at around $5.00. But high costs alone didn’t kill the event. Perhaps it was the lack of ethics, after all, all the large racing events were fixed. Frequency ganging among several large “teams” usually distorted the results to such a degree, that only the “gang” under the frequency umbrella had much of a change to actually win. But even that wasn’t enough for some. When the major engine builder sells a different engine setup to his competitors than what he is actually running, it was not illegal (by the rules for F1), but highly unethical. I’m not talking about simple shim changes to the deck height or head, but rather the port timing cut into the sleeve, before it was chromed.

Cheating has always been a problem in racing, and quickie on the local level was no different. When the Nelson quickie engine appeared on the scene, about half of the local (northern California) quickie fliers dropped out of racing, all claiming costs of the engine was too high. But the reality was they were no longer able to cheat by modifying their Webra, OS, Rossi, HB, ST, K&B, or what ever the engine of the month happened to be. I believe that buying one engine design and running it for 15 years with only a couple of minor changes over that time is quite a bargain compared to chasing the next best engine a couple of times a year.

As far as the composites ruining quickie, I think it is a question of cost and availability. Having a wing that was prepared in a machined mold with a perfect airfoil is certainly a wonderful advance in technology. It adds consistency to the airplane. But a well-crafted wing built with a foam core and balsa goes just as well, if you know how to build it. Not knowing how to build, or having the time to commit to building is a problem. As Randy noted from his dad, it is time consuming. But you can build a quickie for well under $50 if you are willing to trade time for money.

_____________________________

In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to Ken Erickson)
       Post #: 30

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 2:58:51 PM   
Lifes a Drag



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Got it. Thanks!
http://www.valleyflyers.com/flash_apollo.htm




< Message edited by ***Reno*** -- 4/5/2006 11:41:39 PM >

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       Post #: 31

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 3:20:24 PM   
DMyer


 

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A lot of good points here about our 428 predicament... most are probably valid on at least some level... it is kinda like watching a loved one slowly succumb to a long terminal illness where you have all these what if... if they just maybe would haves... but in the end you feel totally powerless to alter the outcome. As mentioned you can build a woodie that flies as well as any composite trading time for money. Being frugal(most call me cheap) I refuse to buy a $500 disposable airframe, unfortunately, I also have very little time to build good woodies like these. If there were more fliers at our local contest... I would find the time to build but I must admit it is very hard to justify or become motivated to build when contest entries are 10 or less. I don't know how to change that and I am resigned to flying only 424 only in the near future.

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       Post #: 32

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 3:54:26 PM   
luv to race


 

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I wouldn't buy a $500 model Q500 either, I don't think you are being cheap. That's why we invested in a mold (built planes in trade for it) and now we build $150 Vortex's. The massive demand is what drove the price to $750.. not us. Spending $50-$75 on a woodie, or $150 on a composite plane... we chose to go with the quicker build time plane, composite.

Nothing has changed with planes from the old days, maybe a little evolution. It's the $375 for a motor that hurts... back in the day, guys would build there own wood quickee.. today, you can still do that.. Dave Normans Seeker, or Bill Vargas has his Racer II... The Intimidator is what I started with..are they still out there? awesome plane.

Randy

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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 5:01:50 PM   
kommander


 

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Reno,
You don't really need a schedule for California races, they are all in LA. Sepulveda or Whittier narrows. However there is an entry level 424 race at EBRC which is in Livermore. It is April 15th. Bruce

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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 5:30:10 PM   
DHG


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kane

The unfortunate thing here is that the CURRENT 424 event for form, fit and function have brought us back 15 years to the days of Rossi/Webra racing. Look at the recent record set on the short course, 1:16 and some change. I remember when we did 1:14-1:16 regularly, with Rossi's and Webra's on the short course. ... Perhaps there should be some proposals to bring us back 30 yrs?? Clubs don't hold races like they used to, people move out of an area, the main supporter moves on and so on.

All,

I know Dan was kidding when he said why don't we turn the clock back 30 years. Nobody wants 30-year-old radios or 30-year-old engines. But maybe we could use some 30-year-old airspeeds. After all, human reflexes haven't changed in that time, and newbies still need to gain a certain comfort level before they're ready to tackle anything near the speed of what we hardboiled veterans consider ho-hum normal. Like any other addict, we're in denial about our own overdoses, but even a Viper with a cheap .40 is enough to send most average pilots running for cover. We won't make any progress attracting newcomers until we face that fact.

30 years ago, Glen Spickler's purpose-built "entry-level" racing airplane -- the original Quickie 500 -- only did 80-90 mph with the engine it was designed for, the mighty K & B Torpedo .40. Ten-lap times were around 2 minutes. (Yes, TWO entire minutes!) Compare that to the 120-130 mph we're trying to sell as "entry-level" and you'll notice a very slight 50-percent increase.

Spickler's design rapidly caught on because the airspeed of that combination, as well as its flying characteristics, were so similar to what the target audience (weekend sport flyers) were ALREADY FLYING. There was no "learning curve" to speak of, except for learning to fly around yourself.

This is not to deny the many other factors that send would-be racers into other activities like foamies, helis, cars, giants, jets, etc. But runaway airspeed is the root cause of most, if not all, of the problems we identify every time we start another round of "why won't anybody race with us?". Consider:

Lower airspeed = short course = more fields available

Lower airspeed = less load on airframe = lighter/cheaper structures

Lower airspeed = less load on airframe = perfect construction not required

Lower airspeed = less intimidating to newcomers = more new pilots

Lower airspeed = less emphasis on eyesight, reflexes = more old pilots

Lower airspeed = airfoil, fuselage contours less critical = more choice of designs

Lower airspeed = surface finish less critical = Monokote OK

Lower airspeed = spectators excited, not scared = more families in pits

Lower airspeed = more club members can compete = more club support

Lower airspeed = newbies can mix with experts and sometimes beat them = more entries

Lower airspeed = easier airplane ID = more volunteer judges, better calls

Lower airspeed = carbs, tailwheels not such a handicap = more "sport" racers

Lower airspeed = less critical servo centering = lower purchase cost

Lower airspeed = softer crashes = lower replacement cost

Lower airspeed = more reaction time = fewer crashes

Lower airspeed = flatter props = better takeoffs

Lower airspeed = flatter props = more engine choices ...

The list goes on.

So, anyone who wants to write the specs for the next entry-level class should make darn sure the airplanes aren't overpowered to begin with, and also allow lots of margin for "speed creep." Otherwise, we are doomed to repeat the lessons of history.

OK, I'm done. Thanks for listening.

Duane Gall
RCPRO

(in reply to kane)
       Post #: 35

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 6:45:37 PM   
js3



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Let me see if I can sum up.

In this thread we have comments:

"racing is too expensive"
"there is too much cheating"
"beginners don't stand a chance"
"entry level racing is too fast"
"too long of a wait for Chuck or Terrence to build me a plane"

What else? Doesn't really matter. What I think it boils down to is that for whatever reason, racing isn't enough fun. If racing were more fun, more people would invest the time and money required of it just to participate.

Right now, I'm finding it hard to motivate myself to gear up for the coming season just to race the same eight guys I've raced for the last five years.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

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       Post #: 36

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 7:21:14 PM   
Super Splatter



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Racing a blast, but it requires effort, time, and money.

With our instant gratification, computer driven world, people want it now. and I say, "fine, go to the mall and leave me alone"

I see the same change here too, yes I race the same people every year only because I'm a adreline junkie and I love racing.

model plane racing is a great release, no junk cars in the driveway, I can throw them in the closet when I don't want to see them.

couldn't imagine a world without racing, too boring.

(in reply to js3)
       Post #: 37

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/5/2006 10:27:53 PM   
Ed Smith


 

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quote:

Racing a blast, but it requires effort, time, and money.


There it is in a nutshell. Racing requires all three of the aforementioned items in various amounts. Any less of one requires more of the other two. It is that simple.

Ed S

(in reply to Super Splatter)
       Post #: 38

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/6/2006 1:59:41 AM   
SCPYLONRACER