RE: Growth of the sport

RE: Growth of the sport
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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/9/2006 3:30:29 AM

HighPlains

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Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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I think I would try the 10 x 5 APC if the goal was to slow it down under 100. Most likely down to about 90. It would make the takeoff even more positive with quicker acceleration. Most quickies have plenty of rudder due to the overly acute angle on the V-tail.

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In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to js3)

Post #: 101

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/9/2006 10:08:26 AM

daven

Posts: 6766
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Andover, MN, USA
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Take off midairs can be greatly minimized by just spreading out the planes prior to take off. Our #4 lane lines up with Pylon #3 and #1 lane is dead center with #2 and #3 evenly spaced. We had 18 racers and 6 rounds yesterday without anyone hitting on take off.

Another big issue, is that some people never learn to use rudder on take off.

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Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to HighPlains)

Post #: 102

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/10/2006 12:33:19 PM

luv to race

Posts: 465
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline

HighPlains.. You all right?LOL.. Things read a bit hostile on here.LOL... looks like you really set fire to the "smokinwreckage", and he's not coming back. Got to love his passion though, first time I've ever seen anyone write the word "owned". That might be an indication of maturity or age.. don't know? My father always taught me to respect my elders, "no matter what", and I certainly have respect your crotchity ways..LOL.

I think jawing at each other on the forums is more or less counter productive. I think actually going to a race and talking with the guys at the races is the way to go. I would be more than interested to do that with the guys from this thread.

Randy Bridge

(in reply to daven)

Post #: 103

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/10/2006 1:50:21 PM

HighPlains

Posts: 2640
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Randy,
It didn't sound like the guys in Tx thought much of his ideas either, and they had first hand knowledge. I got over the idea many years ago that racing is for everyone. Some, because they just can't fly well enough not to put the pits in constant jeopardy, others due to temperment.

My mentor was one of the guys that helped get pylon started back in the 60's. He was one of the few guys put into the NMPRA hall of fame, his race number on his planes was 1A. He always said that making quickie a national event was a big mistake, especially putting it into the Nats. He thought that bringing in the big guns, lots of speed was going to hurt the growth of the sport. Out of respect to his feelings on the subject, I never entered the Nats in Quickie.

On the other hand, work done by Alan, et al., to develop the APRA rules, as well as events across the country within the AMA framework has done quite well. Our problem seem to be the vast gulf that exists between 424 and 428, driven by cost and availability. I think that your attendance in 424 is a great thing for local racing. Dub has said much the same about promoting the sport, and has been quite accurate in his predictions.

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In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 104

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/11/2006 2:29:18 AM

DHG

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Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Denver, CO, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

Our problem seem to be the vast gulf that exists between 424 and 428, driven by cost and availability.

Part of that could be solved by detuning the mufflers in 428. Yes, yes, I know, Nelson and Jett might make small refinements to the sleeve and head, possibly the crankshaft too. The fast guys might have to replace their worn-out parts with a new type of part for the same price, and maybe replace some perfectly good parts with a new type of part for the same price. But the "vast gulf" in airspeed would be reduced ... engines would run cooler and needle easier ... and the newbies could pick up the fast guys' used engines to run with gutted mufflers on them. It's not as though anyone would actually have to throw away an engine.

About those used engines: A tuned-muffler sleeve teamed up with a detuned muffler might not be the cream of the crop, but it would at least be in the same speed range as the refined version. That way, an up-and-coming racer could get his feet wet in 428 without having to buy a brand-new, $350 engine. And every mph that the top speed comes down means less of an advantage for mirror-finished airplanes with laminar foils.

Best of all, this would get more pilots into the 428 matrix sooner. I know I'm tired of local contests where there are 5 guys in 428 and 3 in 424. It's really not that much fun.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

I think that your (Randy's) attendance in 424 is a great thing for local racing.

Agreed! We need more of that. Getting your butt kicked by a Big Name Pilot is a great way to learn ... and coming in a length or two AHEAD of a Big Name Pilot can stoke a guy for years. Of course, the Big Name Pilot has to be brave enough to take that risk, and gracious enough to accept it when it happens. IMHO, that makes him more of a champion, not less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

Dub has said much the same about promoting the sport, and has been quite accurate in his predictions.

Dub has also been saying for at least 15 years that we should detune the mufflers in 428. He predicted exactly what is happening now. Are things finally bad enough that we're willing to listen?

OK, and now to quote the Human Torch: FLAME ON!

(in reply to HighPlains)

Post #: 105

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/11/2006 3:04:43 AM

HighPlains

Posts: 2640
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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Actually, detuning either 428 or 422 has close to zero support, regardless of the logic behind either move. The only thing in the current rule proposals that make any sense for quickie is the proposal to increase the weight by 1/4 lb. Those of you that have had a wing blow apart might agree with that.

That being said, a step up in performance for 424 would be adding the tuned muffler either from Performance or Jett to the $80 TT .40 engine. With the Jett muffler, that puts you into much higher performance with $130 of engine/muffler. Above that, the Sport Jett .40 is a terrific bargain at just over two bills. Any of these mods (along with the OS .46 run in the frozen wasteland up north) puts you into the 428 class.

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In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to DHG)

Post #: 106

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/11/2006 3:20:50 AM

js3

Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

Actually, detuning either 428 or 422 has close to zero support, regardless of the logic behind either move. The only thing in the current rule proposals that make any sense for quickie is the proposal to increase the weight by 1/4 lb. Those of you that have had a wing blow apart might agree with that.

That being said, a step up in performance for 424 would be adding the tuned muffler either from Performance or Jett to the $80 TT .40 engine. With the Jett muffler, that puts you into much higher performance with $130 of engine/muffler. Above that, the Sport Jett .40 is a terrific bargain at just over two bills. Any of these mods (along with the OS .46 run in the frozen wasteland up north) puts you into the 428 class.

Wow Bob, I'm surprised you like this proposal what with all of your planes needing four ounces of ballast.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to HighPlains)

Post #: 107

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/11/2006 5:15:58 AM

HighPlains

Posts: 2640
Joined: 3/2/2003
From: Over da rainbow, KS, USA
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While it is true that my airplanes are usually 2 to 3 oz. under 3 1/2 lbs, it takes careful selection of wood and techniques developed over the course of multiple years to build sufficiant strength. Finding the limits has also cost me an airplane or two with a folded wing and elevator flutter when the Nelson first came out. Even so, it also requires smaller servos, light batteries.

But what I'm really considering with my support of the weight increase are both the ARF's, which seem to come in a bit heavy, and the molded wings which can be marginal (in spite of all the people that swear that they have never had a failure, I have seen more than enough that did fail).

You have to consider that Glen Spickler's concept, which has served us so well for the past 3 decades, now has more than 4 times the power and much better aerodynamics than his prototype. Where he had considerable margins for strength, we are slicing it much thinner.

_____________________________

In politics if you want anything said, ask a man. If you want anything done, ask a woman - Margaret Thatcher

(in reply to js3)

Post #: 108

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/11/2006 2:11:15 PM

DMyer

Posts: 478
Joined: 10/16/2002
From: Potomac, MD, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DHG

Part of that could be solved by detuning the mufflers in 428. Yes, yes, I know, Nelson and Jett might make small refinements to the sleeve and head, possibly the crankshaft too. The fast guys might have to replace their worn-out parts with a new type of part for the same price, and maybe replace some perfectly good parts with a new type of part for the same price. But the "vast gulf" in airspeed would be reduced ... engines would run cooler and needle easier ... and the newbies could pick up the fast guys' used engines to run with gutted mufflers on them. It's not as though anyone would actually have to throw away an engine.

About those used engines: A tuned-muffler sleeve teamed up with a detuned muffler might not be the cream of the crop, but it would at least be in the same speed range as the refined version. That way, an up-and-coming racer could get his feet wet in 428 without having to buy a brand-new, $350 engine. And every mph that the top speed comes down means less of an advantage for mirror-finished airplanes with laminar foils.

Best of all, this would get more pilots into the 428 matrix sooner. I know I'm tired of local contests where there are 5 guys in 428 and 3 in 424. It's really not that much fun.

I know when measures like these were proposed several years ago it went over like a lead balloon... I for sure didn't support de-tuning either as I was also addicted to the 428 speeds. But things change... in many parts of the country... including my own... we have simply reached a critical point where we don't have enough 428 entries to make it fun or to continue taking the club field for a day from the rest of the club to hold races... yes fun... it is zero fun flying the same pilots every other heat, having no time to relax, fuel and plug before the next round.... scrambling with callers because we don't have enough people to team up effectively... and winning or placing is devalued when there are only 7 or 8 entries. Whether we go 145 or 165 will be a moot point soon if 428 entries and contest continue declining as they are in many parts of the country. I for one would support change/detuning if it could increase participation.

(in reply to DHG)

Post #: 109

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/12/2006 7:21:32 PM

Freeman Jr.

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Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Donny , FL, USA
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OK here is my 2 cents.

Q500 428 is too expensive (was) I could honestly say that for me to go to a local race and bring my $500-700 Q500 racer to race the same 10 guys just wasn't the highest on my list. So I saved all my stuff for the nats and winterfest. Sorry I just can't afford to kill racers that cost that much for a local race. I am sure many other feel the same way. When I started to race 15 years ago you could either buy a built racer from Gary West (RIP) or many others, or spend 30-50 bucks on a kit and build it yourself. Hell you could even spend $8 on wood and buy wing cores for $10 if you were really tight, and yes engines were much cheaper back then.

Now after saying all that I do have to agree that times change and so does cost. (LOOK AT THE PRICE OF GAS.) I spent a few hours on the phone with a good friend and racing buddy and we put our heads together and came up with different ideas (we didn't agree on all of them), but we did come up with an alternative to the high price of composites. We thought if we could bring the cost down we could help attract new racers. So if you look SUPERTRC..com now sells a composite wing of your choice with a laser cut fuse and stab for under $350. Now I think this is one of the best answers to bring in the 424 guys to 428. I really don't think you can be on top with a viper or predator in 428, but now you have the best of the best you just have to spend a few hours in the shop building it up.

I guess my point is don't knock every idea try and come up with reasonable solutions.

Freeman JR

(in reply to DMyer)

Post #: 110

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/12/2006 7:31:13 PM

Ed Smith

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From: Brantford, ON, CANADA
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I do not understand why everybody is hung up on Composites. I have nothing against them, I know the work involved. However I build my own from scratch. They have a glass fuselage and foam/balsa wing. I have about $80.00 material in one. What could be cheaper?

The decline, if there is one, is not a cost of airplane thing. It is a "cost of getting someone else to build it for you" thing. There is a difference.

Ed S

(in reply to Freeman Jr.)

Post #: 111

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/12/2006 7:52:54 PM

Freeman Jr.

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Joined: 4/11/2002
From: Donny , FL, USA
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I can see where you are coming from Ed, but answer me this. WHEN IS THE LAST TIME A WOOD WING Q500 WON THE NATS OR WINTER FEST. Maybe it is perception or maybe in is aerodynamics, either way composites win so that is what people who want to win buy. I am not saying a wood wing couldn't win the big contest. I am just saying for what ever reason people don't use them so the perception is if the top dogs use composite so I am..

(in reply to Ed Smith)

Post #: 112

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/12/2006 10:07:32 PM

js3

Posts: 1142
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
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Gary,

I think the biggest reason "everyone" thinks they need a composite plane to win is the fact that the elite racers--R Bridge, T Flynn, and you (just to name three; there are others) all fly composite planes at the big contests. If all of the elite, cream-of-the-crop racers would vow to fly only wood/foam quickies I guarantee you a woodie would win the Nats and Winterfest. Then the perception that only $700 airplanes can win the big contest would be lessened. I acknowledge that composite construction may offer a slight advantage but I still believe it is VERY slight--not enough to make up for the skill of the elite racers.

Please don't read this that I am blaming you in any way. My point is merely that people will always copy what the winners do, thinking that it is their equipment that is lacking because--of course!--it couldn't be their skill/dedication/work ethic etc.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to Freeman Jr.)

Post #: 113