Growth of the sport

Growth of the sport
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Growth of the sport - 4/3/2006 11:36:42 PM

James Hornsby

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From: Beasley, TX, USA
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In District VIII we had our first race of the season this past weekend. At lunch on Saturday we had a meeting to discuss a proposal aimed at addressing the continuing decline in participation. The proposal was to limit the airplanes that could be used in 428.

After a fair amount of discussion the majority decided to try setting the standard district plane as the Viper. A handicapping system was created so that a person can still fly any airplane that they want other than the Viper. The way we decided to try this is to start each race day with a flight of a Viper to establish a base time. Then in any heat if an airplane, that is not a Viper, goes faster than this time it gets one point taken off of that heat’s score. If a Viper beats the base time then the time is reset to this new mark, but is not retroactive to already flown heats.

We thought that we would give this a try and then reevaluate at the end of the year. I think that the consensus was that we have to try something. Not taking any action is not working. We still have alot of things to work out but we are doing something.

Several people were flying Vipers with 428 engines at the race and I heard of a 1:09 with a Viper.

Post #: 1

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/3/2006 11:47:16 PM

Super Splatter

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From: , MN, USA
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Sounds like an excellent idea, keep us informed how your summer goes.

I'd do it, if I were there

(in reply to James Hornsby)

Post #: 2

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 3:17:31 AM

DMyer

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From: Potomac, MD, USA
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IMO 428 will never return to it's high participation rates as long as $500 composites are allowed... sure they are a few seconds faster than the average balsa and foamie that the average flyer can build.... problem is the pool of people who have $500 bills to burn is very small... these things are essentially disposable. We need something cheap and very fast that would make sense for the average 424 flyer to want to step up too. I don't know how many fliers I have talked too ... some very good 424 fliers that could do well at 428... and they all say the same thing... why in the world do I want to spend $500 for a 428 compo when I can buy a 424 ARF for $125? It may already be too late regardless at this point.

(in reply to Super Splatter)

Post #: 3

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 3:50:34 AM

daven

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I agree to some extent as to what has been said above. Like mentioned, it may already be too late.

However, I still don't think its "composites" that are hurting the sport, its the fact that people just don't have the time, energy, or where with all to build a competitive airplane.

Before composites, people were paying Mike Del Ponte a pretty good sum for a competitive wood/foam plane.

"IF" composites were outlawed, and people had to fly an arf or build their own wood/foam kit, the kit builders would dominate. OR, they would find the best kit builders and pay similar large sums to have them construct the best "woodie" out there. I am pretty confident that a Chuck Bridge built "woodie" would be faster and better flying than 99% of what the average guy could do. It may not be as fast ast the current crop of composites, but I'm pretty sure it would still be the quickest out there due to his exceptional building. Considering its more work for Chuck to build a competitive woodie, the price would go up, not down.

I'm not trying to single out Chuck here, there are plenty of good builders out there, but it wouldn't change the message. Jim Allen would be building competitive Quick V's, Terrence would be builiding Neme's, etc... All priced higher than a $125 viper.

"IF", because of the reasons above, it was made an all ARF class, where would you let the mods end? Can you recover? Can you internally strengthen the plane? Once again, the builders that take the time and attention to detail will come out on top.

Alot of people want to point the fingers at the composites, but I think it has more to do with people not having the extra time to build anymore.

A similar thread ran its course at www.nmpra.org (The dying days of racing).

_____________________________

Dave Norman

klasskote.com
supertrc.com

(in reply to DMyer)

Post #: 4

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 12:09:06 PM

luv to race

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From: Liquored, FL,
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DN... perfect response.

I received my "woodie" Vortex a couple weeks ago, I needed it to race 424 up in South Carolina. My dad (Chuck) said it took him over a week to make the wing, and making the stab wore out his hands/arms from all the sanding. His comment was, " hope you like it son, because it's the last one I'll ever build".. so stupid me, I asked "why?".. he said "it's much harder to build compared to the composite stuff, with all the sanding, then monocote"... and the story goes on...

Composites don't cost too much. When the price was $475 for a V-max, the list was 50-75 planes deep. So naturally, up went the price. My dads Vortex list was out of control for a while there, so we raised the price, for no other reason than to slow down orders.. that didn't work either. What I'm getting at is, if guys quit paying for these "big priced planes".. maybe the prices will come down.

I'll play devils advocate here...
Is it fair to penalize a guy for flying a composite design? If it is his own kit, his design, and doesn't sell it, would that influence the decision to not penalize him for going to fast. It doesn't sound to fair to penalize guys for building there own stuff. We shouldn't make this 428ARF Quickee..?? yes/no? Sounds like the other flyers need to hone their flying skills to better keep up, or to perform better. Is that a fair assesment??

Randy

(in reply to daven)

Post #: 5

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 1:43:03 PM

proline8000

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From: Newburyport, MA, USA
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Didn't any of you people learn anything from formula 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Q500 was designed to be entry level,easy to build,low cost,and enjoyable when Formula 1 was FAST ,EXPENSIVE,and required a lot of building skill and lots of time. Now you have changed the entry level event to a full blown high speed high dollar event. Up here in the northeast we had events every weekend with 50+ entrants. Now we are down to about 20 per event and the race schedule is down to 4 races. This sport is going to die just like formula 1 did.... 424,428,and Q40 all share one thing in common they all require to much time to be competitive. I remember the best contests I went to were Q500 events where you showed up with your 50.00 airplane with your 75.00 engine and your standard radio and the event would supply the fuel and the props. Now you have to spend 300.00+ on a motor,300.00 + on an airframe and a couple of hundred on servos before you spend hours and hours setting up your planes and trimming it. The only difference is 424 you use a 100.00 motor. I could go on for hours but this is the last word.... The good old boy's have finally screwed up the whole sport of racing just like they did to formula 1 with only one difference. There is no longer a event that could save it like Q500 did in the 80's..

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 6

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 3:10:10 PM

diggs_74

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I'm affraid this is part of the natural progression of every type of racing I've been involved in, whether it be stock cars, snowmobiles, rc pylon, etc... The classes that are meant as beginner classes always end up just as expensive as the "advanced" classes.. Why, I guess I'm not certian but I can tell you that in most cases the rules didn't change as fast as the technologies do.. This allowed the guys that wanted to put forth the effort, research and cash to squeeze that little extra out of some part(s) and start winning with it.. At first everyone says "I'll never pay that much for that..." but within a year or two it's standard equipment.. This cycle keeps going until it isn't a question whether you would or wouldn't pay that much for something but most just can't... Once that happens the class dies...

Flame on

_____________________________

Lee LaValley
NMPRA# 33w

(in reply to proline8000)

Post #: 7

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 3:46:46 PM

ALbert.S

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From: Roseville, MN, USA
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NONE OF THE ABOVE !!!!1
I think it is the ability of the pilot. If we could get together all the Q500 flyers in the US at one field and have them prepare their planes I think the best pilot would come out on top I don't believe there is that much difference in planes.
In order to keep attendence up you have to keep the average joe thinking that he has a chance to win Isn't that what the idea of the event is?? As soon as joe sees he dosen't have a chance goodbye joe..
So put some chance into the game How about no electric starters??? Hand starting only
No test flights Come ready to race your plane prepared and ready
One plane entered per pilot No backups
And the final ugly thing Engine idle for take off no helper holding Rev up and go on the flag
And of course engine must be idle when landing and stop with engine running
We did all these things when we started Quarter midget 15 Had 32 entries at a local contest Put a lot of luck in the event

(in reply to diggs_74)

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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 4:25:42 PM

proline8000

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From: Newburyport, MA, USA
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Unfortunately the rules did change and not for the better.I think the single most reason the event is dieing is the engine rule changes that happend @15 years ago. Why the engine rule change? Answer to go faster. The second rule was V tails, why to go faster. Other changes include Fuel tanks,tank window,props, etc.... This event was a ENTRY event........... You need to have a event that the average person can go down to the local hobby shop or order on line a plane and engine package that he could be competitive and have success at with little effort,low cost, and a little guidence.. Untill this happend this sport is dead. Isen't the point of an entry event is to have people succeed. Once this happens the will keep comming back.......

(in reply to ALbert.S)

Post #: 9

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 4:46:38 PM

luv to race

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From: Liquored, FL,
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Isn't 424 our entry level event, regarless of the original intent of 428 ?

Entry level = 424 (go to the hobby shop, buy a viper, buy a tt40, go fly)..simple .... Get someone "good/experienced" to help you trim it out, set up the throws, and learn to fly that set up.

I'm lost for what you guys are debating over?

Randy

(in reply to proline8000)

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RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 4:49:00 PM

DMyer

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From: Potomac, MD, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: diggs_74

I'm affraid this is part of the natural progression of every type of racing I've been involved in, whether it be stock cars, snowmobiles, rc pylon, etc... The classes that are meant as beginner classes always end up just as expensive as the "advanced" classes.. Why, I guess I'm not certian but I can tell you that in most cases the rules didn't change as fast as the technologies do.. This allowed the guys that wanted to put forth the effort, research and cash to squeeze that little extra out of some part(s) and start winning with it.. At first everyone says "I'll never pay that much for that..." but within a year or two it's standard equipment.. This cycle keeps going until it isn't a question whether you would or wouldn't pay that much for something but most just can't... Once that happens the class dies...

Flame on

I think you hit on something there... the event cost spiraled out of control(and competitors) as the technology rapidly advanced during the 90's until our current version of 428. Is it time maybe to change the rules to take the techno edge out altogether by not allowing any new technology or building techniques until they can be carefully reviewed for competitive impact and approval? Turning down the HP of the nelson a touch so that arfs can easily hold up and flying the short course so the relative speeds are still high... to take the techno edge off and let the tumbs and plane setup rule? IMO... all the the fun is in the good tight racing... against other pilots... lots of them. Unfortunately we are running out of pilots and these fancy composites will be hanging from a hobby shop ceiling somewhere collecting dust while patrons pass, stare and oldtimers say... I remember when they used to actually fly and race! We are on life support in many parts of the country I frankly don't see any movement for change. Talk about problem denial!

(in reply to diggs_74)

Post #: 11

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 4:58:16 PM

DMyer

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From: Potomac, MD, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luv to race

Isn't 424 our entry level event, regarless of the original intent of 428 ?

Entry level = 424 (go to the hobby shop, buy a viper, buy a tt40, go fly)..simple .... Get someone "good/experienced" to help you trim it out, set up the throws, and learn to fly that set up.

I'm lost for what you guys are debating over?

Randy

You are right... 424 is the new entry level event... it has no lack of pilots or entries. What we have lost is an affordable go real fast event in 428.... some of us would like to step back about 10-15 years with 428 as the technology and fast racing was good enough.... I don't hink there is any way back to that place where local 428 events routinely had 20+ pilots. Most of us in the east are just resigned to watching 428 die a painful slow death and fly 424 instead... nowhere near the excitment... but hey, it is still racing. How long will it be until 424 evolves?

(in reply to luv to race)

Post #: 12

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 5:00:27 PM

diggs_74

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From: Emerald, WI, USA
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I honestly think things could come back in 424 anyway with some well placed exposure to this sport... Most people don't know anything about it.. There needs to be more support from our protectors at the AMA and more promotion from the clubs that race.. I would bet if you got some guys to just try it once half of them would be hooked just like we were.. I still think this is the area that needs more improvement.

_____________________________

Lee LaValley
NMPRA# 33w

(in reply to DMyer)

Post #: 13

RE: Growth of the sport - 4/4/2006 5:08:52 PM

Truckracer