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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 10:47 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Yes, David. Start over with a piece of foam and let the film on.

If you go back to post #88, I go through the process pretty thoroghly.

The trick to not breaking the foam is to go slowly while ceasing it. ANd use a metal yardstick or something similiar to put a score line on the inside of the fold line. If you go slow and work the entire fold length evenly, it will not crack. The instrudtions state to put packing tape on the outside (film side) before folding. That makes a nice leading edge when it's done.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 11:18 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		I really want to build a Charger thingy, too. I was planning on it today but instead spent the entire day reapiaring the planes I have now. I disassembled two old mugi frames for 'tronics and ditched the foam. then I repaired the Stryker that had a nasty nose-in when I lost control after one elevon servo decided to take an unscheduled break. I did get a couple flights in on it (nice) and a couple batteries through the Hyperwing. Very fun!! Whee!! 300DF motors rock! Can't wait to try the 400DF.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 3:19 AM   
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Status: offline 		OK, got the wing folded and glued with no cracks even without the film on. Airbrushed the elevons and the vertical stabs. Glued the front stiffener in place. Tomorrow will finish the upper and lower stiffeners then do some airbrushing. I will take a pic or 2 and post them.
Thanks for all you help.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 1:44 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		David, have you attached the elevons yet? I have had an enlightening recently concerning the method of attaching ailerons or elevons. Let's see if I can explain it here...

First, get the Scotch tape out. The ½ or ¾" wide gift wrapping variety. The clear works better than the frosted stuff. Pull off about 10 pieces, making each piece about 2" in length. These 10 pieces will be enough for one elevon.

Take one piece in each hand. Turn one piece over and attach the end of it to the the end of the second piece, sticky sides toward each other but only overlapping the ends of the pieces by about 1/4". So, what you will have is one piece of tape, 3¾" long, one end being sticky on the top, the other end being sticky on the bottom, and the center ¼" will not be sticky on either side. Got it? Good. Moving on.

Place the tape with one end on top of the aileron and the other end on the bottom of the wing. The center area of tape that is not sticky on either side shoud be right between the edge of the aileron and the trailing edge of the wing. See my pathetic diagram below. Continue making and placing these down the length of the aileron. Alternate placement so one piece is on top of the aileron and the next is under, etc. Adjust the aileron so it is tight up against the TE of the wing, you don't need a gap to keep it from binding and it will still flex both directions.

I hope between the explanation and diagram you will understand this method. Like I said it eliminates the need for the gap or even cutting the edges at an angle. Try it, you'll like it.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 1:58 PM   
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Status: offline 		We used to attach our ailerons on our combat planes with that method but would get flutter. So we went back to the 45 degree angle on the aileron and the a full piece of tape on top and bottom. This was just as strong and totally eliminated the flutter. And was somewhat less time consuming. But thanks for the tip.

Back to the build. I did not use a CF rod as a spar, and when I glued the upper and lower stiffeners in place, I introduced some anhedral in the wing. So what the heck, I just turned it over and voila, dihedral. Also, I have some brushed/geared motors laying around looking for something to power, so I think on this 1st build, that is what I will use.

Did you have much trouble getting the CG balance right on your Mugis? That is my biggest concern. I will post some pics later today.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 2:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey David, This is an FYI thing but i have had a couple probs with the tape hing just being taped to the film. what happens is the film starts to come off and than well ya u can know what happens when a control surface comes loose. So now i put tape on the trailing edge of the airframe and than i stick the hinge tape (top and bottom) to the tape i put on the TE. i also pull all the film off the control surface before i put down tape. hope you can use this info.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 2:40 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		David,

Yes, with a brushed motor it is a little more difficult to get CG. At first I was mounting the brushed 480 motors in the center of the wing. Then I realized I didn't need the foam behind the prop. So, what I do now is to cut more of the foam from the rear center section, thereby moving the motor mount area forward.

I have never removed the film for taping. Maybe it has to do with the tape, but mine always sticks well. And I use the cheapest packing tape you can buy. It is stickier than the more expensive Scotch heavy duty stuff I tried. But whatever works for you...

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 3:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		The film gives a lot of strength and a smooth surface. It should always go on the outside. I use a metal straight edge to crease the inside of the fold and put a strip of clear packing tape on the outside of the fold just in case the film starts to tear or split at the ends.

I love this little plane! I've got one with a rudder and elevons and it really can dance!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 6:36 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		bd, are you referring to your superflea? Can you steer with your rudder? I never did get a good ROG from my last experiment.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 6:38 PM   
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Status: offline 		OK, after a trip to Hobby Lobby to buy some Airbrush paint, here is the project at this point. I am ready to attach the elevons, servos and vertical stabs.



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< Message edited by David_McGinnis -- 1/25/2007 6:57 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/25/2007 8:33 PM   
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Status: offline 		Almost done. Just have to wait for the glue on the fins to dry and mount the electronics. Thought I would throw in a shot of a corner of my Skunk-Worx... My Man-Cave as my wife calls it.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/26/2007 10:24 AM   
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Status: offline 		That's what I'm talkin' bout! Posts, lots of posts! Got a new mugi cut out yesterday. Hope to finish everything tomorrow (sat) and have it ready to fly when the weather cooperates. I angled the trailing edges in towards the motor mount and cut the silencer a bit deeper than the plans call for. I still have my raggedy old can 480 so I will use it again on this one. Still waiting for my bp-21 and the 400DF to arrive. I will get some pics up this weekend once it is a bit further along. Now that I am really into the wings it has made me want to break out the hot wire foam cutter and see what I can do with it. I have some EPP at home and the ideas are just flying around in my head!

David, nice looking mugi! Let us know about the maiden. I like the pic of your shop. Looks like my kinda hangout.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/26/2007 10:07 PM   
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Status: offline 		All right!!!! Maiden flights successful. As you notice by the pics, I had to add lead and place the battery RIGHT in the nose. Not the best looking or safest, but it worked. Flew right out of my hand and only a couple of clicks of aileron trim. Rolls great but the elevator does not have much authority and I have about 35 degrees of movement. Might be a little underpowered. It was of course a little windy so that might be why it wallowed some. Glide ratio not good. Landed about like the Space Shuttle with no flair at the end. But the good thing is, 2 flights, no tree retrieval and no pieces to find and pick up.
I think the next one I build will have brushless with the motor mounted farther forward.
Thanks for all the help and let's stay in touch. I think I will build a biplane out of fff.


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/27/2007 4:34 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Glad to hear it flew. I think it may just have too much weight with the added nose weight and the brushed motor and just isn't enough power. I hate adding weight to get CG right. You're right on. Use a brushless and move the motor mount area further up. That way, no added weight and MORE power!! Good.

< Message edited by five-string -- 1/27/2007 4:42 AM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/27/2007 1:24 PM   
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Status: offline 		Congrats on the successful maiden!! Here is a fewpics of what I have been doing this morning. Hope to finish it up today. Back is giving me fits so I am working on it a little at a time. I made this one pretty flat and made a canopy to hold the batt. Used a peice of lite ply in the fuse for a stiffer motor mount area. I'll update in a bit. Still thinking on some type of skids for it.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/27/2007 5:18 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: steveyman2002

i have built 2 mod mugi/zagi/whatever ya want to call it and well one was way way to fast and well ya it is no longer



Steve,

i'm interested in if it is no longer because of structural failure or ....well.. lets just say.. 'other reasons' *caughpiloterrorcaugh* excuse me lol .. and what is "way way too fast"? i've never seen that before.. is it possible? lol.. im just curious if that style of wing needs a spar in it because of the higher speed and greater wing span.. i think i'll wait to hear from you before i put the 400df on the charger/mod-mugi/zagi wing..

David,

i'm with five-string.. from how you discribe the flight characteristics .. it sounds to me like its actually nose heavy.. i have yet to have a mugi be anything but responsive to elevator.. in fact i have gone to making longer control horns to try to make it less sensative rather than having my end point turned down to about 30%. also.. weight really seems to make a difference on how these things fly.. there's a noticable different between my heavy lipo's and lighter ones.. when balanced right it should loop nice and tight and roll pretty axial.. it should fly so nice that it gives you the confidense to fly it in a way the shortens its life span to about.. hmm.. one or two hours..tops .. lol.. just kidding (not really)

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 2:56 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		semi, LOL cough, cough.

I guess then I can wait for you to make your ZuMi with the 400DF before I build mine, just to see how you make out. So, of course, details and photos are a must. I look forward to your build and will probably build one in the near future, seeing how I don't even have ANY Mugi right now. I just recently got two 30A ESCs and another 20C 1700 mA batttery from UH to go with the 400DF.


BendR, lookeeng goood! Do I see that wood mount moved forward of the TE? You said you angled the TE but I can't tell from the picture. Moving the motor position forward really makes CG a breeze.

I am really excited about these Mugi/Zagi/Charger hybrids. I can see me having a fleet of different sizes and power configurations. If they fly anything like the Hyperwing I currently have I know I'm gonna love 'em. Just seeing those wide wings doing multiple rolls is exciting.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 5:52 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hey semi, the prob with my wing that hit the ground at high speed, was i thought i would try the winglets well they must have started to get a little flutter and it went crazy(wiggling back and fourth bad). at half power it flew great. but u know how i am i could not stay at half power and well the story ends there, my thumbs could not keep up. it was pretty cool though hit on one windtip did about 10 cartwheels and than the parts hunt was on. so i dont like foam windlets, i might try some balsa someday.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 1:23 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hey fellas! Ditto on the details and pics. My 400DF should be about 2 weeks to get here (dang APO mail takes forever).

A new mugi is borne!! I haven't put any "artwork" on it yet. I'm thinking just some windows on the canopy, don't know about putting any color on it yet. AUW is 17 oz with a can 480 and my NiMH batts. I used my old servos from the typhoon and they have long arms so the throws are CRAZY! Heres a few pics.

5S, I hadn't trimmed the TE at the time of the first photos. I still haven't checked cg yet but I think it's pretty close. I'm off to do that now.

Oh, yeah, I had to mount the servos sideways and still had trouble fitting them in because it was so flat!

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< Message edited by BendR -- 1/28/2007 1:24 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 1:44 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Excellent, BendR. I should be pretty fast. Are you planning on changing out the motor once you get your brushless?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 3:58 PM   
coord


 

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Status: offline 		great stuff, one quick question does the Mugi style FFF with pseudo airfoil wing fly any better than the a Mugi FFF with a flat wing? I have build a FFF Stealth Sport from GPWs plans but have yet to put it in the air....winter and all that crap!
The ZAGI style FFF wings have a internal tapered spar that defines the top of the airfoil but as near as I can tell from the Mugi plans both here and on the actually Mugi site(which in it self is a gold mine) there is no such creature. PS on my FFF Zagi I used red and yellow Corplast which is what MUGI builds with, for the elevons to make it more visible from the ground. Check out sign shops for this stuff, they always have scraps of it and for the really thin Corplast, Walmart packages up stuff for internal shipping in boxes made of about 1/16" thick Corplast.
I guess I am wondering if it is worth the work...thx for bringing this plane forward...everyone seems to love it.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 4:58 PM   
BendR



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Status: offline 		5S, yeah, if this one survives long enough ! I have one sheet dedicated to the new brushless setup and one (or2) saved for the new hybrid. Man, this thing is so flat that I had to SHOVE the ESC in between the folds.

Coord, first post! Good palce to do it. Welcome to the world of Mugi's. The Mugi does have a bit of an airfoil to it. The last one I built had quite a large airfoil but this time I was going more for speed and less drag so I made it flat. It all has to do with the way you fold the foam over. I don't want to make it sound complicated because it is not. I get all wrapped up in the details and it takes me 10-12 hrs from start to fly. Hang out, read the thread, build, fly, and most important, HAVE FUN!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 9:22 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Welcome coord.

I have never used coroplast for any builds, always fff. I always end up with some amount of foil in each mugi. From reading stevie's posts about his pancake flat version, I figure the flatter, the faster. Your Stealth Sport is zero airfoil and they fly, so airfoil is not imperative. As long as you have power to push it through the air, anything will fly. But like BendR said I don't like to make it hard. We share ideas and IF it works we make more and keep trying new things as we go.

Please share further your coro Zagi experience. Construction, flying, strength/weaknesses...

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/28/2007 9:35 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Coord, I reread your post. Internal spar...none in my builds. I have used small 1" foam cubes next to the servo to keep the servo arm freely moving and help maintain foil shape, but no real spar.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/29/2007 4:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		Bender, where is your CG? Inches back from the nose. Thanks

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