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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/4/2007 5:28 AM   
five-string



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From: Nashville, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I am impressed. Very colorful. That covering should help strengthen it as well.

I flew the Zumi today. It was very windy and it launched well. I gave the 400df full throttle and the wing began oscillating badly. I reduced throttle to 1/4-1/3 and did a couple laps around the field then landed her smoothly. I realized the way I had the wings joining wasn't near strong enough. SO I came home after a couple flights on the reborn Hyperwing and decided to trash the project. But the wing was in such good shape I couldn't do it. I ended up cutting the center section away and I now have a 34" one piece Zumi. It is ready for a maiden as soon as I get the opportunity.
I'll get some photos up soon. It is already packed in the pickup for the trip to Fl tomorrow.


semi let us know how the maiden goes and I'll do the same.

BendR is stateside now.

< Message edited by five-string -- 3/4/2007 5:29 AM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/5/2007 12:12 AM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		maiden flight report:

i throttled up to half throttle.. side-arm tossed it into the 10 - 15 mph wind.... it went straight up 50 feet.. turned nose to the ground and went straight down.. hit pretty hard but no nose damage at all (the spars clear to the nose must work).. i moved the battery as far forward as possible and gave another toss.. it flew like a bucking bronco.. up - down up - down- up - down GROUND! .. another hard hit.. i put some weight in the nose and tossed again.. this time it flew.. it flew very pitch sensative.. but i was able to fly it

i took it home and started cutting.. moved the motor 1.5" forward and added about a 1/2oz of lead to the nose.. went back to the field.. it flew much much better.. but still a little strange.. it wanted to tuck and roll to the left at semi-slow speeds... when i attached the antenna wire...i got it towards the top of the leading edge.. i thought maybe that was causing turbulance over the wing causing it to stall.. changed the position to directly on the leading edge.. flew again.. problem solved.. flies slow just like it should..

now a question

it has a very noticable difference between power on and power off trim.. it balloons up when i chop the throttle.. i mixed elevon to throttle and pretty much have it taken care of.. but it still doesn't feel like the other zumi.. or the mugi

think its motor thrust.. or still a bit tail heavy?

as far as speed.. it was breezy.. but it seems no faster than the original zumi-charger with a 1200kv motor and a 7"prop.. that surprised me.. think 3" more wing and 3oz more weight is the cause? or is it moving as fast as the drag on the airframe will allow? does the 5.7x3 prop not have enough pitch to push it faster even though it's turning 20,000 rpm?

guess it's just going to take some experimentation.. 'spose to be a great day tomorrow.. maybe i'll get some time to mess with it

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/6/2007 4:44 AM   
max-nix



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Status: offline 		Hi Semi
3" of pitch at 20000 RPM is about 50 mph. Try .5" more pitch & see if the speed increases. (56mph)
1" of pitch increase to 4.0"= 65 mph.
If you use more pitch you may have to use slightly less dia. to keep RPM from dropping. It's a try & fly situation.

http://continuouswave.com/cgi-bin/propcalc.pl

Happy Landings!

< Message edited by max-nix -- 3/7/2007 4:16 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/7/2007 2:42 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Hey Max and semi.

Well, the ZuMi maiden went better than expected.

5.5x2.5 APC prop/JGF 400DF motor/30A Hextronic ESC/3s1300,20C lipo. Pulling 17A on this setup.

I gave it 1/3 throttle and launched in the traditional manner. It took off straight away and a little up elevator and it climbed away very quickly. This 5.5x2.5 prop gives around 24oz of thrust and around 53mph speed according to the JGF website. It had lots of thrust, able to climb straight up until it was too far away to keep oriented (still all blue). It was a bit twitchy but I set the radio to low rates (60% throws, -50% expo) and it was quite manageable. I trimmed it up several clicks and got good flat flight. I ran it below 1/2 throttle for a little then started feeding it some power. Man, this thing climbs out great! I love the whine of those JGF motors! I needed to do minor adjustment to the elevons as I was nearly out of up trim so I did a few laps, some low passes for the camera and brought it in. All in all, I am quite pleased and am going to enjoy tweaking this little wing. After a few more flights, I will switch to a 4.75x4.75 prop. Thrust drops way down to 11oz but speed can reach triple digits. I won't attempt that all at once. Can you say "packing peanuts"? I don't think fff would like 103 mph.


semi, if it floats pretty good with power off, I would not think it to be tail heavy. Maybe point the prop a little higher and see how it acts. And try some of the props shown on the JGF pages. I'm thinking of getting some of the 4.75x4.5 CF props. The numbers look sweet.
Zumi maiden This is a 29M movie, so I hope you have some high speed connection. The cameraman had some difficulty finding the ZuMi but it still has some good shots.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/7/2007 5:51 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		nice video 5! i like your winglets.. you need to put some pics up so we can have a closer look!

thanks for the info max.. if the prop cant go faster than 50.. im sure the plane is in the low 40's

i think this afternoon i will modify the vertical fins to see what affect it has.. i made them rake back a long ways.. maybe thats causing the pitch difference with throttle.. the other thing i am thinking is.. i had to use long servo arms to give the ez-connectors room to move.. i have end point turned down to about 30%.. and then d/r turned down to 40%.. maybe these micro servo's dont have enough resolution to center accurate enough given the small amount of movement the arms have. it just flies ..wierd.. compared to the other one.. i know thats like a woman saying the car goes "chugga chugga urrrrrrch" but wierd is the best i can discribe it.. lol

i tried a 4.7x4.2 apc prop and didnt notice a big difference.. i have a 4.75x4.75 i will try... ill keep messing around till i squeak some more speed out of it..

zuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuumi

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/8/2007 4:14 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		chugga chugga urrcch? LOL!

Here's a few pictures. I put some black marker on it to help with orientation.

The vertical stqabs on the bottom were an attempt at ROG. The prop is too close to ground that it picks up debris and rips the prop up. But the runners make for nice belly landings when I don't flub it like in the video.

It snowed 6" here today so I'm hoping for some nice calm weather tomorrow for some more flying/testing.

I am trying to get hold of some of those 4.75 cf props. I just like those numbers.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/8/2007 9:44 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		finally some pics!! looking good 5!

i cut 2" off the vertical stabs.. it made a world of difference.. so i guess they extended far enough back that drag.. or air pressure or something was causing the big trim changes with throttle.. i tried the 4.75x4.75 (103.9 mph) prop.. pssssshhh... not a big difference unless you consider decreased flight times.. the plane does have a pretty thick airfoil in the center section.. so im thinking i've max'd out the speed.

back on thread topic:

i put a KD22-10S motor in the mugi and took it to fly also.. what a blast.. it rolls like crazy.. turns-n-burns.. had a lot of fun just screaming around... i think i need to figure out some rules and get some ideas about "mugi racing" .. i think this could sweep the country!! it's hard to hurt them in crashes.. they are fast an manue... manuuuu...they turn real good .. the cost penny's and build fast...got any ideas about rules.. how large the course should be.. how tall of pylons? ... what do you think about 2"pvc pipe... roped and staked upright .. maybe 15' high.. with bright orange streamers at the top...

there's isnt a huge difference in the speed between the JGF 3000kv..the KD 1200kv.. and a hacker clone 1050kv motor on the mugi.. but it might be nice to settle on an acceptable kv and prop range..

i think it sounds like fun! what do you guys think?


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/12/2007 3:39 AM   
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Status: offline 		Well its been a wile sice i have last posted. i made a zumi style wing with some mods and it still did not go as fast or have the mobility as the screeming mugi i had, so i went back to the original mugi style. So i just got another mugi flyin. Did some changing and reinforcing. I mad a spar out of foam and balsa right at the CG point. i made it as thin as i could only about 1/2" at the spar area, covered it with econo-coat (i thought it was going to make it heavy but it added very little weight and made it very strong). It flew awsome and Very fast unlimited vertical. Still running the 400DF with a hextronic 1700mh batt and a 20amp speed control. This thing is a lot faster than the last one i had and a lot of fun to fly. Now i am just waiting for Semi to get this pylon thing goin so i can beat him . he will prob win because he is a better pilot. Well anyway we will see, but here are a few pics of the seedster.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/12/2007 3:09 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		nice work steve!

now i have to build a new mugi to compete! lol

i was thinking of eliminating the bottom center doubler also.. and your balsa/foam sandwich spar sounds light and strong....

what did you make the bubble canopy out of?

i'll be out flying around 6 tonight..

oh and saying "he will prob win because he is a better pilot" stop trying to psych me out! lol

you have seen me crash more than once!!!

ill bring the cam and try to get some video of your new mugi to post

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/13/2007 2:24 PM   
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Status: offline 		Well for a flight report..??!! Went flying with semi and it was well a learning experiance. For one semi learned to fly AROUND the pylons and not into them and i learned that the canopy made out of a 2 liter pop bottle was once a good idea till it went through my prop at high speed and full power. No mugi's were distroyed in eather event, a little tap does a mugi good. so i guess it was a good night of flying. but back to the building board for a new canopy.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/25/2007 11:51 AM   
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Status: offline 		Hey there Mugi/Zumi fans! My vacation is over and now I'm back in yugoland. It sure was nice to be back in the states for a bit. I still have lots to do between work and getting my body clock back to local time but I hope to get some flying in soon. I got the witdrawls BAD!!

Nice work there 5string and Steve!! Looks good. I GOT to get some econokote. I wanted to get some while state-side and the LHS I went to only had Monokote in stock. OK, that does it! Time to get an order together .

Semi, Mugi racing!!!!! Even sounds cool. I love the idea. I see a discovery channel special about it in the near future.

**Oh, 5S.....I got some of those expensive CF props and you cannot imagine how out of balance they were. I thought it was a fluke but all three were the same way and different lot #'s!

< Message edited by BendR -- 3/25/2007 11:54 AM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/25/2007 10:52 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hi,

What is the best prop to use for a BP-21 motor for a good combination of speed and power?

Thanks,
Kevin


< Message edited by 3D-Flyer Kevin -- 3/25/2007 11:00 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 3/26/2007 9:34 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		hey BendR, welcome home and back on the board..

yes..the mugi racing was fun.. but there was a catch.. like ass kicking contests.. it's only fair if you both wear the same boots.. and steve showed up wearing much MUCH larger boots than me.. he secretly ordered a new JGF 450TH motor and that thing is a screamer.. no way could my 400DF keep up.. but the good thing was.. he could only hold it wide open straight and level for short bursts.. but going straight up it acceleerated out of sight.. truly "insane" as the website states

as steve said.. i managed to THWACK one of the 1.5" pvc pylons.. that was a shock.. i thought i had cleared it.. it just broke one of the fins off.. it flew mono-finned just fine.. i've since pawned it off to a friend and made a new mugi.. thats the last i have built.. waiting for the urg to build hits me again.. i am thinking of building a amphibious Frog from Hippo plans . i want something that can fly off water for when i go camping.. still searching tho..

happy building/flying/crashing/repairing to all


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/5/2007 9:39 PM   
Artyfact


 

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Status: offline 		5 string Enjoyed your MUGI posts. I have to date built 5 Mugi's (125%) three for me and two as gifts. They fly just fine. I built the extra MUGI's for myself as spares but haven't needed the backups so far! I modified each of them to some extent, mainly in servo mounting and hatch design. They all have essentially the same radio configuration. Servos HS-55, 11.5 lipo's and 18A ESC, 2408-21 out-runners. Power setup all from RC Hotdeals, using an 8X4 prop. Plenty of power but not too much speed. Good slow flight charateristics.
Arty

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/7/2007 6:04 PM   
hauts


 

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Status: offline 		To Artyfact - use a 7x6 GWS propeller. Still enough thrust for a Zagi-size wing with these motors, and a lot more speed (of course never enough...)



I've been reading and stealing ideas from your nice thread for quite a while, maybe it's time I gave something back.

I started making 2mm coroplast Mugis late last year and did a lot of learning on those. Then I stumbled upon this thread and started making Mugis from 3mm depron. Huge weight saving over coro.

This thin depron requires taping over before bending, and some spars and ribs (i used scrap foam, kitchen knife and TLAR for those) so the weight saving over thicker and sturdier foam is more or less null. The taped depron becomes horribly mushy before having to be retired.

Here's a video I had a friend shoot some weeks ago:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7277122859530863527

Now I finally have a 6mm depron version cut and bent, I expect that to last a lot longer.

Lately I've made the fins out of 2mm coroplast for less cross-sectional area and much better survivability. The fins were the only part that kept getting destroyed. Also from the beginning I've used a triangular piece of bouncy EPP, front cut to airfoil shape, glued inside the nose of the plane. This is to save both the lipos and the airframe shape upon nose-ins. Works.

I have 3s lipos ranging from 740 to 2200 mah, and have flown the bp21 mugi's with all of them. Smaller packs go right inside the nose, larger packs need to be stuffed with some foam quite close to center of gravity.

A speed 400 installed in the back works too, but requires one of the larger packs close to front.

I'm going to try some high-kv ebay outrunners next.

This kind of aviation is quite addictive, I've flown 4-6 amp hours on the best days just on the way to or from work.

< Message edited by hauts -- 4/7/2007 6:07 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/8/2007 5:07 PM   
Artyfact


 

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Status: offline 		To hauts,
Thanks for the response! I'll try the 7X6 GWS. Due to my age (74 years), not too great eyesight, and slowing reaction time, I don't need much more speed. I guess thats why I increased the size to 125% for greater visibility and slower speed. I put dayglo colored elevons on their lower surface and large checkerboard on the bottom of the airplane so I could tell if I was coming or going and if I was inverted or upright. It helps with my deficiencies somewhat.
I liked the video! I wouldn't be able to avoid the trees if I were flying there. We have a great flying field but it is about 17 miles from my home. I'll try to attach a link to our club website.
I mounted my servos on the upper side of the plane and made them easily removable by attaching a 1/16th plywood mount on the inside of the wing so I could mount the servos using screws. I made sides to the battery area as you did to strengthen the airfoil shape and provide space for the battery thickness. I also hinged the hatch cover at the rear for full access.
Good flying!\
Arty


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/9/2007 3:08 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		welcome you first time RCU posters! it's good to see more people catching the fff mugi bug!

arty - those pics look great.. i think the most challenging part of flying a mugi is getting used to the orientation of the model in flight.. at least thats what i blame all my crashes on

hauts - i enjoyed your video.. and while i curse the area i live in for its lack of trees.. i think id be cursing the trees if i had to fly where you fly.. like arty, i think id be standing on the ground staring up at my model in the top of a tree

i started building my flying boat on friday evening and should be finishing it up this week sometime.. the wing is exactly like the zumi.. i just added a pontoon to the center section and some sponsons on the wingtips.. ill post some pics later in the week

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/9/2007 6:20 PM   
Artyfact


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Semi I've enjoyed your past posts on this forum. I've been lurking and gleaning ideas from you guys for a couple of months. It has been very helpful. Thanks for the kudo's on my pictures. I have one more MUGI in rehab. I think it was an air - ground conflict. No chance of pilot error. I saw 5 strings' pictures of his ZUMI. Is it a personal design or are there plans somewhere? I think I like building even better than flying. I guess it's possible. If there are plans, please post a link. Also pictures of the float version when you are finished.
Thanks
Arty


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/11/2007 8:35 AM   
hauts


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for comments.

I don't have almost any nice fields here, even the sea got good ice only for a couple of weeks this winter. So it's guerrilla flying in nearby parks and soccerfields most days, if I want to fly at all. I've hit those trees a couple of times, but Mugis never seem to get stuck up there. I do have experience climbing and fishing other planes out of trees and they usually need repairs after that.

I just threw together the 6mm depron Mugi last night, and glued in the servos this morning. Feels much tougher and totally solid, not bendy lilke the versions made of 2mm coroplast or 3mm depron with ribs and spars. This one needed neither, but I modified the airfoil a bit just by stuffing a couple of pieces of foam into the wing after gluing everything together.

About to maiden this one soon on the way to work. Still with the BP21, but I should have 2500 and 3400 kv motors in the mail any day now. Are Mugis a lot harder to launch with high-speed, small-prop power setups?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/11/2007 11:22 AM   
hauts


 

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Status: offline 		Fly it did, even though there's quite a storm outside.

I made the airfoil quite thick and almost symmetrical on this latest Mugi. Was a bit difficult to get it to fly right, next one will have a flat(ter) bottom again. Also I'll take out the foam formers and make them sleeker, no need for it to be so fat.

Flying was cut short by a broken off control horn and nose got some crumbles, but it'll fly more tonight. It's nice to have a glue gun at my office.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/11/2007 5:56 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		congrats hauts! glad to hear it flew.. i never knew the true value of a glue gun till i started building with flat foam.. i even carry a 12 volt converter in my flight box so i can use the glue gun at the flying field!

on my last mugi wing i used .157" carbon fiber rods just in the nose.. extending back about 10 inches along the leading edge and hot glued in place.. after repeated nose in crashes with the zumi i put the same type of rods in(bad CG) it had no damage.. even though it sunk the nose in the dirt about 3 inches.. so i am a believer in reinforcing the mugi nose now

Arty - back a few pages i posted some rough measurements for building the ZuMi wing.. construction is just like a mugi otherwise.. it's a 'cut-n-fit' type of build so just make sure you leave enough extra to trim the folded top piece after gluing.. CG is 7" back form the tip of the nose

i finished off the ZuMi-H2O last night.. now i either build some detachable wheels and test it off land.. or i wait till im around water.. i bet i fly off land first.. here's some completed pics..



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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/11/2007 9:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		Semi, I like the float plane idea for the Zumi. I noticed you put the motor up high on a vertical fin like my Mugi-Flea. On mine I had to get used to a hard downward force any time I increased throttle until the plane gained enough airspeed to counter act it. It made for some really exciting outside loops!

good luck!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/12/2007 12:21 AM   
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Last Login: 7/29/2008
From: Ulysses, KS, USA
Status: offline 		thanks brown.. i remembered reading your posts about that downward force.. and in my searching for ideas i came across The Twinkle.. the designer used a bunch of downthrust to counteract that force.. and i tried to put a bunch of downthrust in my deisgn too.. i made the motor mount in a way that it shouldnt be too tough to experiment with different motor thrust angles if i need to.. i guess ill just have to wait and see.. i ran it around on the grass in my backyard a little today..and at one point it got light on the skids.. i think thats a good sign.. but im anxious to get some flight time on it.. the rudder mixed with exciting outside loops might be a blast.. or a crash.. lol

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       Post #: 348

RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/12/2007 3:14 AM   
semi_conscious


 

Posts: 88
Score: 100
Joined: 1/26/2004
Last Login: 7/29/2008
From: Ulysses, KS, USA
Status: offline 		snuck in a maiden flight tonight when the wind unexpectedly dropped to a light breeze.. thankfully it flew great and all the building wasnt a waste of time..

browndodge - you are right.. at a point right before the stall.. if you slam the throttle it noses down..but not so much that tugging on the elevator wont pull the nose up.. and there is no difference between low throttle and high throttle trim.. so i think the thrust is about right.. ill just have to make sure not to feed in throttle too fast at a low and slow speed..

hand launching was a mistake.. it nosed over.. i killed the power and pulled full up.. it pancaked flat.. and luckily caused no damage other than some insignificant marks on the bottom of the float.. after that i just let it skid on the grass for take off and it lifts off nicely..

all in all im very satisfied.. now ill have to see how she handles water! cant wait!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/12/2007 4:51 AM   
vitaleffects626


 

Posts: 10
Score: 100
Joined: 4/12/2007
Last Login: 8/31/2008
From: pittsburgh, PA, USA
Status: offline 		hello im new to planes and decided to build one of thease but i cant get it to fly its problity my set up, can someone help me out? i think its too heavy or not enough power,
im running
30 esc
gws 400 motor
6.0 5 cell nimh
hitec 55s
hitec feather receiver

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       Post #: 350

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