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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/12/2007 2:23 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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From: Ulysses, KS, USA
Status: offline 		vital - i dont have a lot of experience with a 400 motor direct drive.. but im pretty sure the weak link in your system is the 5 cell battery.... you would have much better results with 7 or 8 cells .. i cant recommend a prop for direct drive.. but that is also pretty important to having good performance.. maybe FiveString or someone else can suggest a good combination.. but the first thing i would change is the battery.. you will notice a world of difference

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/13/2007 12:06 PM   
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Status: offline 		I would use a 3S lipo with speed 400. You can get a suitable pack (say 2000 mah) for less than 40 bucks/euros. Use a Gunther 125x110mm push-on propeller (reverse the spinner). If using Nickel battery, go for a 800-1100 mah, 8 cell pack.

Both speed 400 6V and 7.2V versions work nice with the 3S lipo, the 6V will produce some more speed and will die sooner.


Got my 2500kv Ebay outrunner. A 100% size Mugi of 6mm depron does fly with it, even though a bit sluggish at first, it does pick up speed in level flight.

The motor is advertised as weighing 24 grams so I put the motor mount about as far back as possible. The motor came with a 5x3 prop, but a 5x43 GWS was a lot better and still didnt warm up the motor or battery noticably.

With gws pico servos, micro rx, and this motor + battery combination, the weight of the depron version is less than the "standard" coroplast Mugi in slope soaring configuration.

So far I only tried a 740mah 3S pack, and the plane was tail heavy. Tonight or tomorrow will go up to first 1000mah and then 1800, 2000, 2200... I suppose if speed 400 can fly these packs then this motor also will. It really feels like this needs more wing loading to become more stable and easier to launch.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/14/2007 11:03 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		we got 12" of snow yesterday.. so instead of water i had to fly from snow.. the ZuMi-H20 is a blast.. you guys really need to build one..

here's a video.. poor quality as usual.. i really need to teach someone how to focus a camera and work the zoom.. lol.. oh well.. the videographer works for free so i better not complain

ZuMi-H20 Video

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/15/2007 12:37 AM   
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Status: offline 		That is one fun looking flyer! Can you give use some build details? Did you make the Zumi first then add the fuse? How did you do the motor mount? Any other details and picts would be much appreciated.
thanks

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/15/2007 2:42 AM   
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Status: offline 		hey onewoo.. thanks! ill try to give some more info here.. i wasnt good about taking pics during the build because i wasnt sure if it was going to even work out.. now i wish i had

the vertical stab/motor mount is constructed of 1/4" balsa sticks around a doubled 1.25x1.25x2" lite ply motor mount stick.. then the whole thing is sheeted with 1/16" balsa sheet .. the 2" long mount might be overkill and feels a little heavy.. i think 1.5" would have been as good.. its all very sturdy.. the 1/16" sheet balsa extends out to form a hollow area for the motor wires to feed down and into the wing.. then its capped with a piece of triangle stock to conceal the wires.. the attached picture hopefully shows how its put together

i just made the regular zumi wing (37" span).. without the top sheet doubler (or bottom).. the top of the center sponson/float acts as the center doubler.. the servos are in the sponson mounted right in front of the wing.. i made a seperate hatch for access to them

The Twinkle was my inspiration for this build.. and soon theKM will have depron plans ready.. i just didnt have patience to wait.. and wanted a little larger version.. on his forum he has good information about the downthrust needed.. i just took a guess and it seems about right.. id say at least 10 degrees.. here's some pics...

any more info needed just ask



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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/15/2007 10:24 AM   
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Status: offline 		Huh... Saturday morning I made some coffee, had my morning cigarette, looked around...

A 40 x 90 cm piece of 3mm Depron started teasing me.

"make a small delta out of me. Make a Dazi, just scale it down a bit. And give me that fast small brushless and rip some of those pico servos off other models.. come on, I'm more interesting..."

So warming up the glue gun, I opened the pdf again, wrote some numbers in kcalc as I went, and by noon I had a very sleek looking and nice small Dazi all setup and programmed into the Hitec.

I had all my small lipos charged up so out I went. Came back half hour later with the small Dazi badly deformed, and in need of some hot glue and PP foam formers. Uncontrollable maiden flights suck... But it'd have been boring if it just worked out on first try.

Went out again, with rates programmed way down (25% on elevator, 35% on aileron, as opposed to 40% and 50%). It was still too sensitive, but I finally got it trimmed and found the right balance spot without damaging it further.

With 2s 800mah pack, it flies for a long time but is just a bit sluggish and goes to death spiral easily.

With 3S 740 pack it flies like a much larger wing and climbs, does aerobatics, and recovers from most anything.

One of the death spirals resulted in a great find. I was at a local archery club's field, and the plane ended belly-up on the side of the field. And there I found a piece of carbon hunting arrow shaft - hmm.

Looking around the target stands, I saw some more arrows, all broken and splintered. But finally in the field's trashbin, I was rewarded with a bonanza of arrowshafts and complete arrows, both wood and CF/glass fiber versions. Apparently there had been a cleanup of premises or something.

I was hoping for a couple of pieces of unsplintered cf tube. Now I have full length arrows, and also strong and light wood sticks, for the foreseeable future. Best of all, there's a few different diameters of the arrow tubes, some of which fit snugly inside one another.

I think I'll have to cut them outdoors to avoid asbestos lung.

Now if I could just find my camera's usb cable, but I think I left it at work. Anyway there's a card reader there, so maybe tomorrow pictures of this small monster.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/16/2007 3:51 AM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks for the great info. Could you also elaborate on how you made the fuse? Are you using black tape or black cote?
thanks

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/16/2007 4:29 AM   
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Status: offline 		the attached picture is an example of one fuse side.. i hot glued both sides to the wing before gluing the nose together then making sure it comes together on the center line.. i placed the wing/fuse on the sheet of flat foam and traced its contour to make the top and bottom fuse caps...make sure you make your fuse sides about 1/2" thinner than you want the finished size to be because of the top and bottom.. i put a few formers on the inside to add strength.. just enough to hold the shape and be tough enough in a rough landing..

the black and white covering is sign vinyl.. the blue is econocote.. or towercote i cant remember.. i think the light iron-on converings are lighter than the sign vinyl

what i am unsure about is where i put the 'step' on the bottom of the center float.. on a regular float plane it needs to be right on the CG or a little aft.. but if i were to use that rule for this plane..(because of the swept wings) the step would be about 5 inches from the back... im hoping it works alright.. maybe later this week ill get a chance to ROW.. i have plenty of power to help break the suction the water causes.. so we'll see

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/16/2007 12:52 PM   
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Status: offline 		Okey, heres some images. No video yet.

The Mugi in the pics is of 6mm depron with EPP ribs and you can see the very small 2500 kv motor with 5x43 prop.

Then I put the motor on the pico-sized dazi wing. The Mugi got its old BP21 back.



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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/18/2007 7:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		Semi You done good! Great video I thought. What motor battery and prop are you using? Where are the hills and trees? What is up with the white grass? A lot of questions I know. Looks like it has good slow flight characteristics. Its a good looking plane. I may have to wait awhile to get enough snow to fly off of though.

Arty

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/18/2007 10:16 PM   
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Status: offline 		hey arty.. thanks! im using the just go fly 400DF motor.. with a 5.7x3 apc prop and a polymax (www.unitedhobbies.com) 1550 3 cell

the hills are approximately 2 hours west of here at the base of the colorado rocky mountains.. the trees knew what was good for them and took root in other desirable areas that actually get rain.. although we have been in a wet cycle here lately.. i know its only mother nature temporarily screwing with our heads....the worst part about living in this area is that you see a town about 20 minutes before you get there.. so it feels like you are driving realllllly slowly

i made detachable landing gear for it last night and did a test flight.. they worked nice.. so now its an "amphibizumi".. if the wind would cooperate tonight i would try to see if it will lift off of water

what has happened to our fearless leader on this thread? (five-string) ya still lurking around? what ya been up to? anything new in your hanger?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/20/2007 3:03 AM   
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Status: offline 		Getting ready to cut out one of these.

Anyone recommend a prop for a 480 brushed?

I'll be using the 7 cell 2/3 A (Hobbyzone) nimh packs as well. I believe they are 1000 mah. They weigh around 5.4 oz.

Should I build full size, or scale up?

Got lots of old HZ super cub parts lying around. May as well put some of it to use.


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 4/24/2007 1:21 PM   
jmupilot



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Status: offline 		Hi there Guys, take a look at my gallery at the little NorthStar made of fan-fold blue foam. Its got a 33 in wingspan delta wing, and weighs in at 32 oz RTF. I havent gotten a chance to take it off water yet but it flys real nice off snow. I have had another club member hand launch it and it did fine. Sure is a lot of fun to fly and gets lots of looks at the field. My fuse side looks a lot like semi's side view. It all put together with Gorilla Glue. I have a few pices of bass wood in the tail for strength. The zumi-H20 looks like fun. test flew my newest foamy this weekend and its great little flying plane.

Pete

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/16/2007 12:16 PM   
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Status: offline 		Hello string. You guys got me. Had a Soarstar go down the other day and the elecs. are good but the plane has been down a few times. Gonna give the foamie build a try since got all the other stuff for it. Let you guys know how it turns out. trying a speed 400 geared, pixie lipo esc, paralleled 800mah 11.1's, hitec nanos, and berg 4l receiver, 6ex transmitter. any other points of advice for the first timer?


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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/18/2007 2:16 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Hiya, folks! Sorry, I wasn't receiving notices of anyone posting on this thread. Didn't mean to ignore anyone. And I'm really glad to see somebody still interested in good ol' Mugi.

Cubmaster, that speed 400 geared, that is a brushless, right? I guess whatever prop was on it for your other plane should get the mugi flying. Then after your initial flights, look at swapping props for better speed or thrust, whichever is needed. I can fly my Big Mugi (150%) slow with a 8x3.8 with lots of thrust or a bit faster with a 7x6 Master Airscrew prop but giving up some thrust for speed. The 6EXA is what I use and love it. Set up dual rates, low around 50%, high 100%. That way you can get crazy in the air then calm down on low rates for a real smooth landing. Enjoy. And definitely let us know all about it.

By the way, just fyi, I am flying the 150 mugi pretty regularly still. This is the one I originally designed to carry my dig camera. I don't put the camera in it anymore as I do aerial vid with a Slow Stick now. But the Big Mugi is still a fun, easy flier.

Let me know what's up with all you guys.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/18/2007 11:47 PM   
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Status: offline 		hey five string. thanks for the initial settings and what not. that 4oo is brushed. seem to have good power but that of a brushless. what u think, will it work?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/19/2007 8:16 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Cub, yeah, I think it will fly. It's more of a question of what you want from your Mugi. I like mine pretty fast. I don't think you will see much speed with a geared brushed setup. My very first one had a 480 direct drive and it was alot of fun till I burned it up on 3 cell lipos, but 480s will run quite a few runs before giving up the magic smoke.

Fly it with that setup and see how you like it. If you would like to try a 480, I have one I can send you if you pm me your addy.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 9/29/2007 5:17 AM   
rcverse



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Status: offline 		Well guys not sure who's still here, looks pretty quiet....

anyway had a thought that might get some interest..... that already posted on Badius III thread..... here's the copy

Hey 5-String..... and any other FFF fans,.... and slopers, Andy ...

Been off reading the ...."One tough FFF", thread,... aka mod Mugis......... good thread you got there!!!
Started thinking about building one cheap with old SD stuff,.... to set my Bro up with a good cheap electric... he's more $$$ challenged than I am!!

and while I was at it stumbled across an old short cut to DLGs.... "discus launched gliders" ....they have always caught my eye!!!
got me thinking could you FFF a DLG???.... maybe.... lite wt, tough material, and cheap....

Here's a link to the one that really got me thinking.... the "Boomer" DLG http://www.mountainmodels.com/product_info.php?products_id=349
Here's a 2 Ch DLG "wing" .....that from the now unavailable videos??... flew very nicely "on the street"....

This may be a little more challenging to build with a higher aspect wing, and better airfoil than the FFF usually gets,..... but I bet largely doable....
Really, its pretty close to the Zagi wings.... with a throwing peg in one end.... once saw a bungee launched Zagi a kid was playing with, not bad....

Thinking its time to get me an elevon mixer and some FFF..... and see if I could stir up some interest... guess should post this to the FFF thread too.... worth a shot



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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 10/27/2007 8:57 PM   
rcverse



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Status: offline 		hey Dan .....
good to see some life over here again,..... seems been pretty guiet here since spring.....
guess need to get busy and see what I can put together.... just to many irons in the fire, and too much surfing....

Maybe get Scot over here and stir things up a bit.........

See if Mark explains the drawback to his inverted fins.....

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 10/29/2007 1:10 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Ok, Jim, you lured me in....

the Zumi was built to be a two piece wing I could break down for throwing in the sleeper berth for some quick flights while trucking. I lost a little too much strength in the airframe , it had a small amount of dihedral flex, causing a bit of control issues.

Also, I put three short (1" high) vert stabs UNDER the wing so I could also use them as runners or skids to land on and, ideally, ROG from. They were a little too short to make the craft real stable.

It did fly probably a dozen times or more but was indeed a handful of sticks to keep aloft.
Very fast on a JGF 300 motor and a 4" prop.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 11/22/2007 10:02 PM   
rcverse



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Status: offline 		Hey Mark

I get the picture...

Sounds like bigger fins needed, for both yaw stability and ROG..... I think the more in board the fins the more yaw stability, so maybe couple 2"+ fins inboard ventral, with wheels on the bottom, for both ROG prop clearance and more stability, .....then just need a nose fin for tricycle gear..... from my multihull days recall the more centered the stabilizer the less it followed the yaw arc, ........and the more it extended fore and aft along the center line the more the directional stability, basically greater moment of inertia...... Trimarans tracked better with a centerboard or keel on the main hull, than with fins on the outriggers, which tended to follow the yaw arc, same should apply to wings....

The Rutan VariEze had a short noose gear and extended trailing gears in a similar configuration with a pusher prop, if just think of the canard as a short root chord delta ......
Maybe just a couple recessed wheels aft, on extended fins....... and piece of slanted piano wire for nose skid, the shorter the better maybe for less drag.... round wires where seen as a large source of drag in wire rigged wings.... HG guys started fairing their down tubes and even the rigging wires to reduce drag......

the other option is to incoperate the nose wheel in a shallow faired keel in front. .....which would allow a stronger wing joint if carried back to the motor mount, .....would be much like the Me-163 Komet..... a very fast little rocket when the motors worked.... don't suppose one those mini turbines next on your motor list, .....maybe we can get Mike interested!!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/29/2008 12:17 AM   
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Status: offline 		I hate to revive dead threads, but is anybody still making/flying these FFF Mugi/Delta wings?

I am getting ready to build up my first FFF Mugi this week when all my parts come, everything seems fairly straight forward..except the motor mounting. Whats a good easy(cheap?) way to mount these an outrunner like 2408-21?

Also is there a reason so many people dont mount their battery/gear inside? I've seen some Delta's that have their battery so close to the tip...i cant see the battery surviving any sort of typical crash, even if the nose didn't crumple fully i could see them sliding or slamming into the ground even in lower speed crashes from the downward force. I thought the point was to bury it inside to prevent things like that?

Every LHS around here wants rediculous prices for motor mounts, like 4.99-8.99 for a tiny piece of plastic and screws....

Which seems ridiculous considering the plane frame itself is like 2 dollars of foam..

< Message edited by arsenic0 -- 7/29/2008 1:42 AM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/29/2008 2:11 AM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		arsenic0 - it's probly good you revived this old thread.. it's still very relevent.. i still have a mugi flyable.. but havent had it out for a long time.. i'll add that to my list of things to do in the near term!

i always put my battery and electronics inside the fuse.. i've had some very violent nose in crashes and never damaged a li-poly yet..

usually i use some scrap fff for bracing/formers inside to provide more room for everything..

as for motor mounts.. i have always just cut three 1.25" x 1.25" x 1/8" light ply squares.. i glue two of them together back to back.. which makes it 1/4" thick to match the fff.. then epoxy the 3rd square to it to make a "T" .. i just screw an outrunner to that.. i'm not sure if a 2408 mounts that way or not.. hot glue works to glue the MM in place.. i started using nothing but hot glue to build a mugi with... makes construction got fast and it's just as durable as anything else

good luck.. they are a blast to fly!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 7/29/2008 3:06 AM   
arsenic0


 

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Status: offline 		Are you glueing the T mount your making between the foam or just glueing it to the top?

I would assume the top so for easier replacement, but i could be wrong

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 9/24/2008 9:44 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		arsenic, I know this is an old posts but hey, maybe it will help somebody...

yes glue it to the top with your choice of adhesive. I prefer Gorilla Glue with 10-20% white glue stirred into it. It foams up nicely and will fill any voids and hold very well, even aluminum or plywood to foam. Sets up in about 15 minutes. Or 5minute epoxy works well. I love the smell.

I just glued an aluminum mount to the front of an old wing with the 5minE....not purdy but very functional. It flies great.......

HI SEMI!!!!!!

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