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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/10/2006 2:43 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Very nice photos, Semi. I think I shall use these for my next build. It's really quite a coincidence you should post this now. After my Broadhead design was marginally sucessful, I was thinking along the exact same design lines that you just posted.

Did you install plywood in between the plies for the motor mount area?

Do you have any idea for a CG measurement?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/10/2006 7:29 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		yep - i used your motor mount idea.. it's 2 pieces of 1/8"x1"x1.25" lite ply laminated . i glue this in the plane after the initial folding.. and epoxy the 1/8x1.25"x1.25" motor mount plate to the light ply and the foam when im ready to mount the motor..

i flew it this morning for 20 minutes.. the cg was at 7" back from the nose.. it worked out that my servo arms were right at that point so checking balance with different batteries will be easy.. just lift it by the servo arms

it flew great.. with the vertical fins.. rather than winglets.. it has a more axial roll (i think thats the reason).. i set the dual rates so it won't roll out of a full elevator loop.. it does a very nice tight loop now .. the one thing that surprised me was it's power off glide.. this thing might be able to soar if the thermal is strong enough..

the mugi is still going to be more fun to scream around with doing fast rolls.. but this model will be good for training my son and also fun to zip around with.. wide open speed seems comparable with the mugi.. but it's speed seems faster at lower throttle settings.. i'm hoping orientation is easier for a beginner

i decided to post the plans and pics here instead of making a new thread.. if people read your mugi instructions.. building "the charger" (as we call it) will be a snap.. i can't thank you enough for the work you put into this thread!

< Message edited by semi_conscious -- 12/10/2006 7:31 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/10/2006 10:24 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		Complete and ready to fly

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/11/2006 12:39 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		That is great news and one fine looking craft.

Thanks for all the info on this build. That is what really makes a great thread, the free exchange of ideas.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/14/2006 3:00 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		I worked today on a new 100% mugi. I came across some different fff given to me by a good friend. It is covered on both sides with heavier film and it doesn't have any of the waviness that is inherent with the Dow products. I will post some pictures of the craft when complete. Here's some of the new foam...

I decided to not try the new Charger design just yet until I prove this stuff flight worthy. I think it's going to do well.

EDIT

The new green foam doesn't seem to hold up to crashes as well as the blue stuff. I now have half a bundle of it and it is more rigid and has film on both sides. The downside is the film can be pulled off rather easily and like I said, it isn't as resilient as ol' blue. Tradeoffs.

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< Message edited by five-string -- 1/24/2007 2:30 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/14/2006 11:41 AM   
AJ1202


 

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Status: offline 		Semi, that is a fine looking build, I hope it fly's as good as it looks
Good Luck with it

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/15/2006 7:46 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		I did some experiments with the Broadheadt oday (yesterday). I mounted wheels on the rear wingtips and a steering nose wheel up front. Not retracts at this point. I put a 5043 prop on it which gave me about an inch of ground clearance. I set it on the ground at my favorite flying spot where there is a nice sized parking lot of fine gravel. First try, it started to taxi nice then I lost one wheel collar and one wheel came off. Ok, replace and try again. This time it did great. I drove it to the far side of the lot, lined up and gave it full throttle. This thing is really fast on the ground. But for whatever reason, I didn't get liftoff before getting to the grass line at the edge of the lot and it flipped over on it's back. No damage but i noticed some nicks in the prop. Remove prop, emory board the prop smooth, reinstall. It taxis out great again. But I notice some 'ticking' sounds as I'm running around. The wheels are picking up tiny stones and they're getting sucked into the prop. Until I ran it back to me, almost half the prop is gone!

So, I am going to try again but i will move the motor mount up on top to get the prop away from the ground. I think it could be fun just running it around on the ground. It is really fast and I haven't gotten to full speed yet.

Once I work out the bugs, I will try the setup on a mugi.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/15/2006 9:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		thanks AJ,

the more i fly it the more i love it.. i've put 4 packs through it now.. thats over 80 minutes of flying.. ever kept track of your time on a plane before? i havent, but i bet it adds up fast when getting over 20 minutes per pack

the charger penetrates the wind so nice.. i've flown it in 15mph winds with no problems at all.. even power off it keeps altitude and forward motion.. it's nice and quite in high speed power off dives.. only thing i can really hear is the prop turning against the motor brake.

5S - im interested in how the building goes with the new green foam board - i had to travel for business earlier this week and stopped by a lowes to get more blu-cor.. i didnt pay much attention and i assumed it would just have film on one side (which it did).. but after getting it home i realized how flexible it is.. is this stuff even any good for building anymore? does dow realize how they have screwed us out of a great cheap building material?? i am thinking of trying the vinyl shelf covering on the unsheeted side to see if that stiffens it up any.. im also thinking of ordering some 'premium sign vinyl' off ebay.. its bright colors and glossy shine look very nice and i bet the adhesive is stronger than contact paper.

your story of the prop being blasted away by gravel reminds me of the old cartoon where Wile E. Coyote shoots his propeller off with his machine gun.. lol (if thats the correct cartoon im thinking of)

show pics of the broadhead with wheels! and video of an ROG (gravel) would be great too!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/16/2006 4:11 AM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Actually, the new Blucor Protection Board III is not bad stuff to build with. It is pretty flimsy but still makes pretty good planes. I have built several planes with good results. I tried lining the bare side with packing tape but couldn't get it to stick well. I am interested to see if you can get the contact paper to stick.

I may try to get a little video next time out. I don't know if the Broadhead is going to fly well with the the added weight of wheels. But I am hoping to learn enough to apply this design to a well trimmed mugi.


Here's the prop that got eaten by the gravel...

Didn't someone do a high motor design on a wing? I could use some guidance moving the motor up high.

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< Message edited by five-string -- 12/16/2006 4:32 AM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/20/2006 1:52 AM   
steveyman2002


 

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Status: offline 		Hey 5S and all mugi fans! Well the day has come to retire the screaming mugi its life was short but FAST!!!! After flying it about 15 times or so i noticed some folds forming in the bottom of the wing, of course I keep flying and the folds turn into cracks . I guess that is what i get for having 3000kv with out any cf rods or any kind of wing support. The good news is that i will get to build another mugi, with some changes!!! i have attached some pics of the late plane the last one is of the cracks. well all have fun and fly like crazy.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/20/2006 1:57 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Hey Stevie!

Glad to hear you are still flying the mugi. I am going to get one of those 400DF motors. How many amps are you pulling? Are you still on the 5.7x3 prop?

Of course we will want to see the new mugi once it's born. I will get some photos of my newest one made from green foam.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/20/2006 4:13 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		i was lucky enough to be there and see steve's mugi try to shred itself apart.. he would throw that thing into the most violent of spins.. it would spin really fast till it threw itself flat.. then slowly decend.

so he's screaming around with it rolling at a rate of about 3 rolls per second.. enough elevator to make it spin like crazy .. and i ask the obvious question "so...how much expo do you have programmed in?"... his reply...."none" lol.. i've got about 50% in mine and sometimes i think it's pretty sensative!

so today i ordered a JGF 400DF with a few different apc props.. my wife thought i was done buying my own xmas presents.. but maybe i can slip this one by her lol.. i've spent a lot of time trying to find a 2000 - 3000kv cheapy motor that could run the same props and pull the same amps but just finally gave up..and this motor is now on sale for 39 bucks!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/22/2006 9:32 PM   
browndodge


 

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Status: offline 		Hello again,
I found a great deal on some blue foam at Lowe's the other day (9$ for a bundle) and decided to build a blue foam version of my super flea twin. I've almost got it ready to go with a 24'' span, homemade b/l motor and a 2S 640 lipo.

I like how you can fold this foam to make an airfoil shape. This stuff builds fast!

About the wheels, I tried my styro plane with the little wheels on the bottom and it worked really well until I landed too hard and mashed the wheels into the plane. I was flying on a concrete parking lot and it was really windy.

Five String- I noticed you said you put the wheels on the rear wingtips. This will probably be good for driving on the ground but for taking off they might work better if moved forward some. Of course then you might hit your prop when the nose comes up. Putting the motor on top solves this though.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 12/31/2006 3:16 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Semi, I have the same motor coming. I will be curious how yours works out.

Brown, I gave up the wheel project for now. I've got too many things going on at once.

< Message edited by five-string -- 12/31/2006 3:18 PM >

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/1/2007 12:39 AM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		i think you'll like the 400DF.. i first flew it on the mugi with a 5.5 x 4.5 apc.. i got a pretty short flight with that prop..under 10 minutes.. after a cool down lap the motor and batteries were only slightly warm.. the battery was brand new so i'll have to see how that battery does next time

i changed to a 5.7x3 and i didn't see a big reduction in speed.. flight time was back up to 17 minutes with my 1550 polymax lipos

the mugi must be a little draggy.. i'm interested in how this thing would do in the charger or a zagi style wing.. but im worried it could flutter it to pieces.. i'm thinking of building another one and putting a spar in it.. next time out i'm also going to try a 4.7x4.2 prop and a 4.5x4.5

i wish i had paid better attention.. in one of your previous posts you gave a website that has this motor on sale for only $29..

by the way.. with my homemade shunt the 5.5x4.5 apc was showing about 21 amps static on fully charged batteries

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/16/2007 6:55 PM   
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Status: offline 		String! All! Howdy. I'm back again. Well, I did it. I finally built the mugi and took it out for it's maiden. I have to say I had some trouble getting it going at first. I finally realized it needs a pretty good shove to get it started. Once I figured that part out (after hitting the ground 5-6 times) all was well in the world of the mugi! Man, what a plane!! I had my reservartions about this thing but after flying it, now I have plans for a new one and this time brushless. The first one was from parts cannibalized from old wrecks I had laying around and just threw it together. This time around I actually want to plan it and make a speed demon out of it. Love that rush! String, you have done an amazing job on the r&d of this thing and I will have to go back thru all the old post to get some hints. I must say, I'M HOOKED!! Thanks!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/22/2007 6:36 PM   
BendR



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Status: offline 		Ok fellas, lets keep this thing alive. I'm just now getting caught up and now I'm tuning into a mugi Junkie!

I am getting a little bit concerned with the props on the 400DF. I have one on the way and want to get my order for props in. I was checking out the charts and the prop/batt combo I'm looking at tells me that it will spin at 24000 (yes 24 thousand!) rpm. The props are rated for 19,000 and some of the guys testing them were even freaking out!

Semi,
I see you have ran the 5.7X3 and had good luck with it. Have you had any probs with probs coming apart? Have you (or anyone) tried the 4.75X4.5 CF props? The stats look awesome but the price is a bit steep on them.

Thoughts, sugg's, all appreciated!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/22/2007 8:43 PM   
semi_conscious


 

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Status: offline 		hey BendR,

glad to hear you caught the mugi bug.. weather here has been crap for weeks now.. so i haven't been able to fly..

to be honest.. i wasn't aware of the 19,000 rpm limit to apc props.. but im never right there by the prop when its at full throttle except when i tested the amps..and then i was sure to be behind the prop just in case... you can't help but respect a prop spinning at those rpm's! i'd like to try a composite prop but haven't had the chance to seek out a place that sells them...

stevieman2002 has been running this motor much longer than me..and has no problems with the apc props.. i am currently running the 5.7x3 but next time out i plan to test other prop sizes including the 4.75x4.5..

good luck and keep us informed of your results with props.. ill be sure to report back also

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/23/2007 8:53 AM   
BendR



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Status: offline 		Thanks for the info Semi! I read on the APC site that the prop in question is actually a glow prop (free flight) and that those props were rated for those rpms. I am still in the middle of verifying that info. The slo flyer props are listed at a much higher rpm rating. Seems odd to me but I just now got really into the prop thing. The carbon fiber props can be found at many places. I just did a yahoo search for APC04745CF and there were many places that came up with them. TWR sells them and has one of the better prices as well (at least that I found) and it still hurts at over $9 a pop! I still gotta know tho so I got 3 on the way!

Steivieman2002, any sugg's or input? I always like experience over numbers on paper.

I'm waiting on my motor and props (along with a truckload of other stuff) so when I finally get them and get some flying in I'll post the results here. Since I am where I am, it might take a few weeks to a month.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/23/2007 1:10 PM   
five-string



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Status: offline 		Wow! ou guys have been posting and I didn't even get an email notice.

I have my 400df and should be building my new and improved mugi/zagi/hyper combination wing type thing soon. I am going with semi's ideas from post 198. I am flying a Hyperwing which is probably a Zagi knock-off now and LOVE this plane. It rollls like a drill. And any maneuvers are lightning quick, and no lack of speed from the 300df. I'm thinking a fff version, around 40"WS with the 400df should rip holes in the atmosphere!

My last outing with the Hyper ended in the esc peeling loose from the velcro mount and getting into the 4.75x4.75 APC prop. It was screaming along on a vertical climb. And these things are noisy little buggers compared to most electrics. Then suddenly everything went perfectly quiet and I saw something fluttering through the sky from the plane. It had knocked the prop and saver right off the motor. I was able to bring the Hyper right back and land at my feet. I went searching and found the prop, still attached to the saver. Damage was limited to two cut wires on the esc and a tiny knick in the prop, all repairable.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 2:48 PM   
steveyman2002


 

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Status: offline 		BendR, I have had really good luck with all the apc props and have a ton of flights on a number of diff prop sizes. The only thing i noticed on one of my 4.75 X 4.5 was a little bit of stress marks at the root of the blades like they had been bending back in flight. My 5.7 X 3 prop has been really good and i have a lot of flights on it with my 400df. I have a couple CF props ordered up from tower, just for kicks to see how they do.
Semi u say the weather here is crap?? lol it has not stoped me from flyin . i have built 2 mod mugi/zagi/whatever ya want to call it and well one was way way to fast and well ya it is no longer and the other one is still a work in progress. well call me if ya go fly some time.
hope i could help on the prop info.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 3:11 PM   
BendR



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Status: offline 		So YOUR the one who bought all but one of thier CF props! I was going to get three and all they had left was one.

Just kiddin. You saved me 20 bucks . It will prob be a month before I can fly the new wing with the DF motor. The motor just got ordered and my order from united still hasn't been filled. Hope it will ship tomorrow. Lookin at three weeks minimum to get to me.

Thanks for the info!!

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 9:20 PM   
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Status: offline 		OK, I am missing something... How do you keep the foam from cracking when you fold the wing?
And it looks like you did not remove the film on the Mugi in the pictures. Do you need to film to keep from cracking?

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 9:26 PM   
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Status: offline 		fold it so the film is on the outside. I push down on it with a metal ruler at the fold line to kind of score it. it you fold the other way it will snap.

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RE: One Tough FFF Delta...Build It! - 1/24/2007 9:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		So if I have removed the film from both sides, I just need to cut a new wing and leave the film on 1 side?

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