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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 1:52 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		Hi, Kostas, great to see you again.

I'm running a gasser in my GSS, so I use a 4.8V pack for my engine spark, usually somewhere between a 1650 and a 2700mAh. For my Rx and servos, I use a 6V pack of at least 2700 mAh. I'm not running any high-draw servos in this bird, to speak of. When I was running larger birds with 50CC engines, the larger ailerons and other surfaces had some high-draw servos, the largest being the rudder. In that case, I placed a "Y" in the line going back to the rudder servo, and plugged an extra 6V pack into the other leg of the "Y." That allowed the high-draw servo to use the voltage from that pack first, and it wouldn't start drawing on the main pack until the rear pack was depleted.

I never have had any brownout issues, but I also use a common sense. If I've flown a few flights - 3 or 4 - then I don't push it. I sideline the bird, and check my voltages before chancing another flight. If it needs charging, I charge it, or take it home and charge it. Despite all the chatter and hoo-ha in here about brownouts, it's a rare occurrence, no matter what the radio brand. It's my concerted opinion that IN MOST CASES, brownouts are caused, not experienced. Whether through inattention, not using common sense, or just bad decisions, I believe that most brownouts are preventable.

There's always a guy at the field who didn't lose that plane through any fault of his own, and he's going to make sure everybody knows it - just like he did with the other 5 models he lost. The radio was bad, he took a hit, the list goes on. And everybody DOES know it. The truth, that is. This guy will keep on making bad decisions, he will continue to lose models, and it will NEVER be his fault, he will never own that crash.

After 35 years, I rarely crash a model. The last two times I crashed one, it was my fault. The last one, I had an engine skipping on me, and I was having problems getting it to idle down. I decided to go around again. No sooner did I veer away from the runway than it quit. Sure, the spark plug failed (as it turned out), but I should have put it on the ground while I could have. That was a bad decision, and bad decisions crash planes, be they models or full-scale. I blew the landing gear off the plane that day, so it wasn't a catastrophe - but it could have been a lot worse.

If it can happen like that, then guys can decide to fly when their battery voltage is questionable. As I said before, whether through inattention, not using common sense, or just bad decisions, I believe that most brownouts are preventable.

By the way, I caught some of your videos of you flying your GSS, Kostas! Looking good there. Flies beautifully. But were those light poles I saw there? LOL - that must keep you on your toes!

~ Jim ~

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 3:13 PM   
ahicks


 

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Status: offline 		Hoo-ha? Really?

Jim, because you haven't had the issue doesn't make it a rare or non existent occurrence, even if your buddy's haven't had it? You're entitled to an opinion of course, but to sit there and assume/write remarks that people that have had the experience are not attentive, are making bad decisions, or are lacking in common sense and experience, is totally arrogant and condescending on your part. Not all of us are as smart as you are, or have engineering degrees. We're forced to plod along slowly in our own little dim world...... learning stuff the hard way many times.

As I'm sure you know, preventing brown out is easy - once you know there's a problem - and you've figured out what that problem is. Coming up to speed on that is the more difficult part.

You keep saying you like to help, but if anyone else tries to they are always wrong. That's what this is about. I was trying to help too, by presenting the potential for brown outs (which you say don't exist) and how to recognize them should it happen. Never did I say what you were doing won't work, or put what you were doing/thinking down in any way or manner. In the future, would appreciate it if you would extend the same courtesy.... -Al

< Message edited by ahicks -- 8/20/2012 7:22 PM >

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 7:55 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		What you're doing will work fine, Ahicks, just pull out a pocketful of cash, and throw it at it. The whole hobby is going that way. Voltage regulators, and all that stuff.

Then there's those of us who came up through by visiting the local hobby stores and specialty suppliers for plumbing, electronics, etc. We found ways of doing it on the cheap, and usually quite durably in the process.

There's a number. Three point two. That's what we strive to stay away from. it doesn't require a voltage regulator, or LiPos, though you're more than welcome to use them. I have a friend who likes A123s. A battery pack that's 6 volts is 1.2 volts further away from that number we stay away from than a 4.8 volts is. Amperage had nothing to do with it, unless you're talking about draw, and even if it were factored in, it takes more amperage to draw down 6 volts to 3.2 than it does 4.8 volts. 6 volts is an easy, inexpensive, and eminently successful step to take in maintaining one's distance from a brownout. So is finding a battery-pack supplier who sells you NiMh packs that you can trust with your plane's life.

When I was a kid, there was this guy who everybody in town trusted to work on important machines, and he was diverse in his abilities. One day I had the opportunity to work with him, and I asked him, "Louie, what is it you do that makes you so much better than everybody else?" He was a modest man, and he shrugged, and said, "To be honest, I just take some extra time with everything, and I pay attention to detail. That way, I only have to do the work once." I wasn't expecting that answer. I'd expected to hear something about being faster, or smarter. He was the very best because he always paid attention. He saw things differently from the way other people did. Like me, he grew up working on farms, keeping old machinery running the most cost-effective ways, and you always knew when it was otherwise. I always wanted to be like Louie. Maybe I succeeded. Maybe I didn't. But I trust my instincts.

Do I spend extra money on things? I sure do. I buy Saitos, and my gassers are Syssas, and they run SO good that they were worth the extra. In the end, they save me money. There are other avenues modelers take that I don't agree with. There are a bajillion (technical engineer term there, watch out. . . ) new people in the hobby these days, and it seems to an old stick-builder-turned-ARF-builder that a whole LOT of them have more money than brains, or at least more money than they have common sense.

They call radios crap, radios that I once would have given my left one to have. (Arm, of course.) Some spend to buy expensive gear WAY outside their skill level, and then, when they lose it, it's a brown-out, or a hit, or ANYTHING but them dumb-thumbing it, and they'd NEVER admit it just got away from them, got too hairy and turned-around for them to handle. I see it every time I go to the field now. I hear the BS stories. Then I see the older gent with a more basic plane and years of skills, flying and enjoying a 7-year-old plane that he set up conservatively, but exquisitely, flying without comment or crashes, and smiling ever-so-slightly at the stories of the brownout. After the hotshot kid walks away, he says quietly, "Whats that? Six brownouts this year? Third radio? Airtronics, then JR, and now Futaba?"

We all know.

So yes, I do believe that the VAST majority of brownouts are either preventable, or were fairy tales in the first place. Not saying yours was (if you had one - I didn't check), or that your NiMh wasn't bad. Just saying maybe there are some better ways to do things than that, and that a little more research can take the place of spending a lot more money. Or even a little more money. The point is, there are always alternative measures that can be taken, and if you come at it from a certain perspective, it doesn't have to involve spending a ton of money, as long as the problem has been successfully addressed. It's my belief that some of the guys with the least money to spend in this hobby are the very ones who find the most joy in watching their models fly. I think it's okay to report problems in RCU, but not to trash products. Let the reports speak for themselves. And I think it's just as important - maybe MORE important - to share what DOES work and saves money.

You probably won't have to worry too much longer about me annoying you this time around, ahicks, since my small respite from work is about over, and my editor is demanding that I come across with the goods. It was fun to drop in and yack with the guys.

No rest for the annoying.

~ Jim ~

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 8:14 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		Guys, it's time to give it a rest. This was last weeks waste of a good forum and now we want to keep it going? How many subscribers do you think we can chase out of here???  Both of you have talked your side to death and THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO SAY. The rest of us will take what you said and extract the bits and pieces that pertain to us and move on just like any other information source. It is up to the reader to determine the best course of action. I know for one I have gained valuable info from BOTH of you and am thankful for that but C'mon was gettting childish last week. What is it this week? Just my .02 - MD

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 8:23 PM   
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Status: offline 		Well put, Muttdog.


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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 8:52 PM   
TexasSkyPilot



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Status: offline 		One form of complaining is the same as the next. Ahicks didn't like what I said. He never does. I didn't like what he said. I rarely do. And now you didn't like what we said. All the same. Nobody was taking about anything in here, and nobody was chased away. As I recall, I was talking with Kostas, a friend of mine from Greece, who has a nice GSS.

If you've got something to say about your GSS, jump right in there and talk about yours, muttdog.

I'm not stopping you. I've talked about mine in here plenty - for two years.

~ Jim ~

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 9:06 PM   
ahicks


 

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Status: offline 		Oh for crying out loud.... are you trying to twist this around or what?

Throwing money at it? Pocket full of cash? What the heck are you talking about? Where did that come from? You're like a wife loosing one argument so she starts another?

I don't use voltage regulators, or any other high dollar approach to this. After getting tired of trying to get by/worrying about my NiMh batteries, I've gone to a pair of A123 cells that were 10 bucks apiece, fly my whole rig on just those, and have PLENTY of reserve power. They leave me with 6.6 volts for my flight pack (yes, through 2 switches, call that exorbitant if you like!), and I run power to my ignition though a 50 cent diode to get that voltage down to a safe level (which I had to do with my 6v NiMh batteries anyway). That's about 40.00 give or take, including the 2 HD switches, for the best available technology! How is this a high dollar approach? Seems pretty basic to me?

I think everyone knows brown outs can be prevented. I agree, that is common sense, no rocket science required. But you need to know what you're trying to prevent, no? The problem is predicting it prior to it happening? Knowing about the potential for it to exist? That's not common knowledge among those new to giants and/or gas. That's my point Jim, if you could open your mind up to it for just a second. The NiMh batteries have the potential to lead those not educated about them right in to brown out scenarios - or whatever you want to call them. No other battery technology (popularly used in RC) will do that. That's ALL I'm trying to say....

Why my concern regarding brown out scenarios with THIS plane? Currently most believe that metal gear servos are a good plan when flying gassers. (At least I hope so.) Many building this plane are buying new servos, big ones, and are going digital (because they like the idea, or because they don't know any better, whatever). Because nobody has explained the comparatively wimpy NiMh battery chemistry, my belief is many will fly this plane using the big new digital high torque servos - and possibly have a problem because of that stupid battery. One easily prevented with the knowledge that NiMh chemistry is lacking compared to any other chemistry (nicad, lipo, A123/LiFe). It's a heads up, not a dire prediction of doom.
-Al

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/20/2012 9:28 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		Well I actually have some good news about mine. I managed to get my new ignition installed as well as the newly strengthened  landing gear after it came back from paint and was able to run a tank through it on the ground. Sounds better then ever and I am very pleased. I ended up purchasing the Spark plug through my local Honda dealer as I have a wholesale account with them and it was as easy as sending an email. I never charged the batts after my 2 deadsticks from 2 months ago and actually left it turned on overnight but the single 4.8V NiMh Hobbico pack still had no hiccups powering the engine through 11minutes of run time. That by the way is a full tank for me using the stock tank. I have come in before after 10 minutes and was concerned with how little fuel was left so I wanted to test and all I got was 11 minutes. Most of the time was around 6k rpm but I tried to fluctuate as much as possible. I think on busy or windy days I will cut my timer down from 10 mins to 9 just in case I need a little time to get her down. The landing gear is now (dare I say) perfect. Before it was so weak that it would flex heavily just sitting on it's wheels but now it is stiff enough to hold it up but you can definitely tell there is some suspension action as well. I still have to repair a small dime sized hole in the wing from the deadstick and I still need to repair a broken stringer just behind the cockpit that I damaged when working on it. If the stars go in perfect alignment then I should have her up Sunday morning for the shake down.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 2:30 AM   
ahicks


 

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Muttdog,
Nice to hear you're moving forward! I don't remember anything about the stock gas tank other than it was pretty good size? What engine are you using to go through that in 11 minutes at half throttle?

An NiMh on your ignition is a good match up. You can probably fly that all day on a charge? 250 mah at wide open throttle is all your pulling with that I think.

-Al



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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 4:55 AM   
Kostas1



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Status: offline 		Thank's for your kind words about my GSS Jim!

My GSS is the most stable and hassle free airframe I've ever owned and I'm very proud to own it.....I bought it with the savings of two years

As for my videos, for my bad luck, the battery pack of my HD camera wasn't charged when I went to shoot out the last GSS video.
So I really apologise for the quality.

Jim,
check my last video on my profile on youtube....Yesterday I uploaded a nice collection of photos I took on a recent visit to the Greek Island of the Aegean Sea, called Paros.

As for the b. packs on my GSS, I forgot to mention that I have digital Futaba servos on all surfaces except throttle and rudder, where I use a high-torque Hitec analog servo.

Best,
Kostas1

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 12:41 PM   
Muttdog


 

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ORIGINAL: ahicks


Muttdog,
Nice to hear you're moving forward! I don't remember anything about the stock gas tank other than it was pretty good size? What engine are you using to go through that in 11 minutes at half throttle?

An NiMh on your ignition is a good match up. You can probably fly that all day on a charge? 250 mah at wide open throttle is all your pulling with that I think.

-Al




Al:
 I am using DLE 30 with stock tank. At first the engine was super rich for it's break in period but I have since been leaning it out and now it is still rich but pretty close. I was expecting longer flight times out of the gas engine but this plane is double the weight of any other plane I have flown before so everything is new to me. I would be interested in the engine combos and flight times of others out there just for my reference. I am getting closer now as the small hole in the covering on the wing is fixed. One or 2 little tweeks and she is ready for flight. On another note, I learned something new about my FR Sky 2.4 conversion module for my JR radio. I had been noticing that I hear an errant beep every now and then when I was flying my other plane and it has been driving me crazy so I went to the website and re read the instructions. Turns out that even though I am not using the telemetry features of the Rx it still reports back signal strength and Rx battery strength to the Tx module by a series of warning alarms. I tested this last night by closing the plane in a room and walking out of the house (and down the road). Sure enough as I got further away the week signal warning went off and then shortly after I heard the other beep reporting a low battery condition. Now that is a .40 plane it has a standard Nicad pack that came with an old Futaba radio. The pack is at least 10 years old and must be getting tired so hence the warning. That gives me a ton of confidence in the radio system now as it will let me know if there is trouble on the horizon. I had 2 telemetry receivers and one non telemetry Rx and put the non in my GSS but I will now change that out to the Telemetry Rx so I can have this extra safety net. I have had this coversion kit for my JR for over a year now and have to say that it is fantastic and I would recommend it for anyone.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 1:12 PM   
azalner


 

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Status: offline 		Hi MD

What prop are you running and what is your top end RPM?

Al

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 1:26 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		I think it is 18x6 master airscrew classic series or possibly 18x8 (can't remember) and she spins around 7700 at W.O.T.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 2:22 PM   
azalner


 

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Status: offline 		An 18 x 6 is underpropped for a DLE-30. An 18 x 8 will work and 7700 rpm seems to be about right but may be on the low side. I'm not familiar with those props. I use an Xoar 19 x 8 and get 7400 top end. I also re-fitted my DLE with a Frank Bowman ring and sanded my reed block flat.

I use an after-market 12 oz. tank and usually have about 1/4 to 1/3 tank left after a 10 minute flight, sometimes 15 minutes if I'm shooting a lot of touch and goes.

A common mistake made by folks new to gassers is the belief that you should run the engine rich during break-in. All you will do is carbon up your engine. Set the high needle for max rpm at full throttle, then set the low needle for good idle & smooth transition. Go back and check the high needle and you should be good to go.

I use Stihl HP Ultra 40:1 in mu fuel mix

Al

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 3:00 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		Al:
 I disagree with your break in procedure. This is a ringed engine with chrome plated aluminum cylinder and they do require break in (IMHO). I left it rich for 2 reasons, 1 is to provide more oil as I did not run a break in mix, just more fuel and oil and the other is to help keep the temps down as the parts wear in. One more thing, on a gasoline engine a layer of carbon is GOOD and something that you want to happen. Too much causes problems as well but a small layer of carbon on the top of the piston helps to prevent heat from transfering to the piston. I am very experienced with high performance 2 stroke racing engines and this is the procedure I run on all of them. Maybe a little excessive for this little weedwacker engine but my engines have won multiple world and national titles at the pro level in Personal watercraft racing so I stick with what I know. Even though DLE has a good name, The Chinese are not know for their close tolerances so a heavy oil and fuel break in procedure is just cheap insurance as the parts mate to each other. I have also noticed the idle settle down since break in. Of course everyone has their methods and I am sure they work, but in my experience break in is mandatory.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 4:03 PM   
ahicks


 

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Status: offline 		MD,
Not familiar with what the MA prop turns either, but an APC 18x8W (wide blade) will turn up well over 8k pretty reliably on mine?

So 2 things make me think you're running pretty darn rich. Your fuel consumption, and your top rpm. Not trying to sound any alarms, just a heads up regarding what I would be expecting while running mine. 7700 would be at the very bottom of what I would consider as acceptable, even for break in. That's me though.... -Al

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 4:38 PM   
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I'm not debating whether break-in is necessary. Just the how. I have two DLE-30 and one DLE-55. I broke them all in on Stihl petroleom based oil at 32:1. Then I switched to Stihl synthetic at 40:1. The only exception is the engine on the GSS which I started right off on Stihl synthetic 40:1. I replaced the stock rings with Bowman rings on all three. During the break-in period (about 1 gallon) I never ran the engines hard. In every case I set the high needle for maximum RPM.

I now have over 15 gallons through my first two DLE's and I run them hard (3D). Time will tell. The GSS will not get the same workout as the MXS-R (30cc) and the Yak (55cc).

The point I was trying to make was that your poor fuel efficiency is most likely due to running too rich. You will also find that you will quickly foul the plugs.

So as far as running rich during break-in we will have to agree to disagree.

By the way, where did you get the info that the cylinders are chrome plated? This is the first I heard of that.

Best regards

Al



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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 5:28 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		Al:
 Fully understood and agreed. I may not have been totally clear in my first remark about the fuel consumption. I was running very rich to begin with but when I did the 11 minute test this past weekend the engine was only slightly on the rich side and yes I did notice a longer run time after that but not night and day. I would say I have another 1/8th turn on the high needle before being just right so she is very much in the ballpark. I believe the stock tank is 420 cc and that translates to 14 ounces so I am surprised to hear you are going longer on 12 (if I read that right). The engine is fully broken in now and I would have had it tuned by now if not for the bad ignition module. When I was going through that problem I did not want to make too many adjustments at once for sanity sake. This weekend I will pay very close attention to fuel consumption and high speed screw position and  post my results next week.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 5:38 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		I have not had the DLE apart so I cannot say for sure what plating treatment they are doing to the cylinder but the piston ring cannot ride on bare aluminum. If that is possible for small engines then I am wrong but in my experience that makes no sense. Gone are the days of the cast iron liner as they are heavy and do not transfer heat to the cooling fins efficiently. All "normal" size gas engines with aluminum cylinders and no cast iron liner are usually plated with a chrome like plating process that is very hard and durable. Just about every high performance motorcycle engine is made this way and many automobiles are too (outboards, lawn mowers etc.). Many manufacturers have a proprietary method with it's own name like Nikasil (honda) but they are all similar in that a very hard and thin (.002") plating process is performed over an aluminum base. This provides extremely long wear properties as well as very efficient heat transfer. before when we changed a top end on a bike it always had to be bored to the next oversize but with modern plated cylinders we only bore and replate them if there is damage, they do not wear out. Replating is not for the faint of heart and we send everything out to be done. Cyanide is one of the chemicals involved in the process.

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 5:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks MD

I've had my engines apart but frankly did not pay very close attention to the cylinders other than to see if there was any flashing from the machining process.

AlZ

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RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 5:51 PM   
Muttdog


 

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Status: offline 		You wouldn't know even if you were looking. The plating is so thin that you cannot tell easily. The best way to tell is to look in the transfer ports and sometimes you can see where the plating ends and the aluminum begins but not always. Again I have never seen an enging run on bare aluminum so if there is no steel or cast iron liner then it has to be plated. If I am wrong I would love to see an example as engines are my passion (especially when they are in dirtbikes) and I am always interested in learning

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       Post #: 2071

RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 6:48 PM   
azalner


 

Posts: 196
Score: 110
Joined: 2/17/2009
Last Login: 6/13/2013
From: Washington, PA, USA
Status: offline 		First of all, let me say that I am not trolling nor am I looking to engage in a debate. I am simply sharing the results of an experiment I undertook to satisfy myself about the relative merits of NiMH battery chemistry vs. A123 battery chemistry. At the same time I was able to draw some conclusions regarding 6.0 volt packs vs. 4.8 volt packs.

Here is my set-up:
A servo cycler capable of cycling 2 servos simultaneously
Two Hitec 5625 digital metal gear servos
A 4.8 volt 2500mAh NiMH pack
A 6.6 volt 2300mAh A123 pack
A digital voltmeter

First I measured the battery voltage no load. Next I hooked up each battery to the servo cycler and recorded the voltage.

The results:

NiMH no load - 5.08 volts
NiMH load - 4.46 volts

A123 no load - 6.88 volts
A123 load - 6.81 volts

You be the judge.

AlZ

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(in reply to Muttdog)
       Post #: 2072

RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 6:50 PM   
azalner


 

Posts: 196
Score: 110
Joined: 2/17/2009
Last Login: 6/13/2013
From: Washington, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Here the results of the A123 test

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(in reply to azalner)
       Post #: 2073

RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/21/2012 6:59 PM   
MTK



Posts: 4080
Score: 203
Joined: 5/14/2004
Last Login: 6/18/2013
From: Whippany, NJ, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttdog

I have not had the DLE apart so I cannot say for sure what plating treatment they are doing to the cylinder but the piston ring cannot ride on bare aluminum. If that is possible for small engines then I am wrong but in my experience that makes no sense. Gone are the days of the cast iron liner as they are heavy and do not transfer heat to the cooling fins efficiently. All ''normal'' size gas engines with aluminum cylinders and no cast iron liner are usually plated with a chrome like plating process that is very hard and durable. Just about every high performance motorcycle engine is made this way and many automobiles are too (outboards, lawn mowers etc.). Many manufacturers have a proprietary method with it's own name like Nikasil (honda) but they are all similar in that a very hard and thin (.002'') plating process is performed over an aluminum base. This provides extremely long wear properties as well as very efficient heat transfer. before when we changed a top end on a bike it always had to be bored to the next oversize but with modern plated cylinders we only bore and replate them if there is damage, they do not wear out. Replating is not for the faint of heart and we send everything out to be done. Cyanide is one of the chemicals involved in the process.

It sounds like you guys are running these engines at WOT all the time while flying. If yes, then 1 ounce per minute is about right.

I run my OS33GT at 1/2 to 2/3 rds throttle and get 15 minutes on 8 ozs. Half throttle for this powerful engine works out to be just right in my application so there never any need to use more throttle. YMMV


_____________________________

Regards,
MattK

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(in reply to Muttdog)
       Post #: 2074

RE: New Giant GP Super Sportster!!!!! - 8/22/2012 3:59 PM   
ahicks


 

Posts: 1911
Score: 669
Joined: 8/10/2008
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Waterford, MI, USA
Status: offline 		I think our fuel usage may be up a bit due to the size and weight of this plane? I think most of us are running 6 and 8 inches of pitch. It's a big 14-16 lb draggy sport plane with dimensions that might be similar to those found on a lot of 50cc planes. Blast to fly, but hardly efficient?

A clean 12 lb plane running 10"+ pitch probably wouldn't be using as much fuel?

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(in reply to MTK)
       Post #: 2075

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