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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 11:23 AM

bayareajeff

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Very cool... thanks for all the input.. and the brain power as well! I am impressed.

Would you say that FSone has realistic tail dragger take offs??

Thanks..

Jeff

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 12:07 PM

RVM

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Out of curiousity, how do the mathematics for describing the aerodynamics of a spin differ from that in "normal" flight? What makes it so difficult? Why hasn't more research been done into this single, and very important, aspect of flight?

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ORIGINAL: MSelig
Yes, that's me. Good to hear that you've enjoyed the airfoil work.
It's a product of a lot of people - myself, students, other
collaborators, and many volunteers.

The FS One project is a bit like that - lots of people behind it and
hopefully a lot of people will enjoy it! I've focused on doing the
aerodynamics for all the airplanes in the sim.

You asked me a question - how "real" is it? I think that's the first
time I've been asked that question in these forums.

I can answer it best by example (new videos). The toughest thing to
simulate are the aerodynamics/flight dynamics of spin. Spin
aerodynamics is rarely covered in the textbooks, and often if it is
covered it's near the end of the book (e.g. McCormick's aero book
starts spins on page 577 and the main text of the book ends on page
601). Research on spins is also pretty sparse, but I think by far
Bihrle Applied Research has looked at spins the most (various NASA CR
reports on particular configurations measured in spin tunnels).

More info: To some degree our lack of understanding of spins and
stalls - stall/spin - accounts for ~25% of general aviation accidents
each yr (biggest category). The second on the list at ~15% is loss of
control in adverse weather, and I'd guess much of that involves
stall/spin - usually icing related. US Private Pilots reading this
will know that spin training is not required by the FAA, and it's a
big debate whether or not there should be spin training. For some
period of time long ago when there was spin training, 48% of all fatal
stall/spin accidents occurred during spin training! That's the argument for
why we don't have required spin training today.

So spins are the biggest challenge (in my book). Leading up to spins
are stalls, and related to that is all the wild "3D"/aerobatic flying
that we're witnessing today with RC models. In general a lot of this
is called post-stall aero. The videos that are posted on the FSOne
site show a lot of the "3D" aero, and to all involved (on our side) it
looks right and hence I'll say "real" - very real. "You be the
judge."

In another thread I made the argument that if the videos look right,
then the physics are right. I'll stand by that claim. I guess the
counter claim would be if the videos look wrong ... then the physics
are right??? That does not make sense to me.

Back to spins - the hardest thing to do (in low speed configuration
aerodynamics): We have taken real video of the planes in the sim and
we often capture spins. Here's a short video showing REAL model
airplanes in spins:

http://www.inertiasoft.com/videos/fs1_RealSpins.wmv (21 Mb)

The video includes the ParkZone J-3 Cub, H9 Edge 540 33%, Cessna 182
Skylane, Twist, Ultra Stick Lite and EFL Tribute.

I used FS One to fly the same airplanes in the sim (all stock
airplanes) and made a video of them in the same sequence here:

http://www.inertiasoft.com/videos/fs1_SimulatedSpins.wmv (24 Mb)

Basically, the agreement between the real video and simulator video is
very good I think. Hence I'll say that the sim is very close to real
and in particular especially good at doing one of the toughest things
- spins. After getting spins "right", a lot of other stuff "comes for
free" to some degree.

I need to say that in addition to the aero side, the graphics of the
models, the skies, the panos, engine/motor sounds, ground reactions,
etc all help to create the overall illusion of things being "real".

Michael

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 4:47 PM

da Rock

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quote:

In another thread I made the argument that if the videos look right,
then the physics are right. I'll stand by that claim. I guess the
counter claim would be if the videos look wrong ... then the physics
are right??? That does not make sense to me.

Michael,
First off, thanks for the work that's helped us so much.
And then let me ask a somewhat pushy question. In the quote I pulled out, "if the videos look right, then the physics are right" seems perfectly right and true. But for guys who're asking about the realism of the sim, doesn't the answer have to have a little broader reach than the physics? I understand I'm broadening the context of a statement I pulled from context, but how would you cover the broader question? Physics certainly is one source for the realism, but most of us judge the realism with how the airplanes look (as in the video) but also connect the look in our "videos" (on our monitors) to how we've had to push the sticks to get that look.

When y'all did those videos, did the flyers performing for the videos find that they were pushing their TX sticks pretty much like they would at the flying field while flying those models in flights that looked like the videos they got back home? how fast and how much they pushed the sticks?

I worked for major airlines since back when they/we were starting to develop computer applications for systems such as flight planning and weights and balances and the problems of developing RC simulation have intrigued me since I first saw them. I'd hazard a guess that the problems you guys face are probably pretty much the same "real" ones we faced. Although I'd bet y'all didn't have to deal with a Flight Engineers' union or ALPA.

BTW, I'm looking forward to benefitting from your work, yet again.

whew....... long winded again......

< Message edited by darock -- 10/1/2006 4:54 PM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/1/2006 7:23 PM

RobT

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Thank you Mike. I would have to agree that one of the area's that is lacking in most sims I have played with is spins. Another is some planes (high wing loading) will have a high speed stall, or "bite" This is lacking in sims. Also I have never seen a sim get tailslides right. (and in IMAC unlimited this is something I would like to be able to practice realistically) Any feedback for how FSone does with these?

Thanks again

Rob

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/2/2006 9:14 AM

MSelig

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I'll get to a couple of questions now and then come back later for the
others above.

Tail draggers - I think it does them like one would expect: Ground loops, etc.

Spins - In normal cruise flight the aerodynamics are 'linear' (lines
of data are mostly straight). In a spin, the angle of attack is high
and the wing is stalled, so now things are 'non-linear' (curves and
dips, not much is straight). This makes modeling spins hard relative
to cruise flight. Why isn't more research done? It's a
good question, but I don't have an answer for that one.

Michael

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/2/2006 10:41 AM

bayareajeff

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Thanks Rob,
Say Hi to Tim Allen for me.. there in Champaign..
J

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/2/2006 11:27 PM

HK182

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not to jump off subject here, but how does FS One do helis? I only have experience with G3, but I've noticed that the helis in G3 are very easy to fly, unlike my heli that I am currently learning how to fly : )

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 12:14 AM

50%plane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HK182

not to jump off subject here, but how does FS One do helis? I only have experience with G3, but I've noticed that the helis in G3 are very easy to fly, unlike my heli that I am currently learning how to fly : )

Everyone always tells me that G3's helis are harder than real life. What heli do you fly?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 12:52 AM

HK182

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a Blade CP Pro, I've been told that this thing can be hard to fly, and so far its not to bad, just alot harder than anything in G3. Now, I've only played with G3 for about 20 min., and I thought it was a great sim, but I could do whatever I wanted to with the helis, even the smaller ones like the MX400, which is not the case with me and my Blade. I've flown planes for about six years and had a Nexus 30 when I was just getting started, then got rid of it to concentrate on planes, so my heli skills are severly lacking. This is why I'm looking at getting a sim. (and I'm looking at this sim because I have two E-Flight planes and a Funtana)

< Message edited by HK182 -- 10/3/2006 12:53 AM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 2:42 AM

Josey Wales

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Well from the few videos I saw I am very impressed and send out many thanks to Mr Selig and his design team..Ive tried all the sims and as of now, AFPD is the best IMO..however just from the few things Ive seen, it looks like FS may be as good or even better..I would think that this new sim would address all the complaints that users have with the current ones available and by looking at the videos of the spins, it seems they are on the right path..To me the graphics are just fluff..they are nice but Id rather have a plain looking scene with excellent flight characteristics any day.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 3:22 AM

RobT

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BTW Dr. Selig,

Any chance FSone will have some of the Extra series of aircraft available? (ie. Extra 260, 300, 300S, 300L)

Thanks

Rob

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 6:21 AM

R C Jack

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Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 7:07 AM

50%plane

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HK182

a Blade CP Pro, I've been told that this thing can be hard to fly, and so far its not to bad, just alot harder than anything in G3. Now, I've only played with G3 for about 20 min., and I thought it was a great sim, but I could do whatever I wanted to with the helis, even the smaller ones like the MX400, which is not the case with me and my Blade. I've flown planes for about six years and had a Nexus 30 when I was just getting started, then got rid of it to concentrate on planes, so my heli skills are severly lacking. This is why I'm looking at getting a sim. (and I'm looking at this sim because I have two E-Flight planes and a Funtana)

ah ha! From all that I've heard, the CP Pro is a pain to fly. Also, it's not a real heli.

(just had to say that)

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 8:12 AM

HK182

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yeah, it can be a pain, thats why I'm lookin at getting a T-Rex after a little sim time

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/3/2006 3:59 PM

50%plane

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I've been interested in helis for a while, and I was told that the micro helis were harder and much more responsive than the 90's are.

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 2:55 AM

R C Jack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

Can anyone?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 3:32 AM

RVM

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It should, if you have your emulator set up correctly. The better question is: how will it perform running through a Windows emulator on my Mac?

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

Can anyone?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 3:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

It should, if you have your emulator set up correctly. The better question is: how will it perform running through a Windows emulator on my Mac?

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

Can anyone?

The key will be the video card driver compatibility. With the new intel Macs and bootcamp, the Mac is more or less a "real" PC. The Bootcamp drivers are provided by Apple though, and not the same as the PC versions, though they should be close. You won't know until someone tries it. I'm hoping to get one of the new Macs soon, and hope to be able to run FSone and AFPD in bootcamp.

Cheers!
Lee

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 4:07 AM

lsnover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HK182

yeah, it can be a pain, thats why I'm lookin at getting a T-Rex after a little sim time

I don't know about on the SIM, but in real world, the Blade and TREX are both harder to fly then a 30, 60 or 90 glow heli. That said, I think the TREX is harder to fly then the Blade. The Blade is not as capable, and not as intimidating. It flies around pretty nice once you get the hang of it, though it IS very susceptible to wind. The TREX is much more sensitive and the extra power is intimidating (at least to me), it can get away from you quick. The bigger helis are much more stable and easy to see. But electric is SOOOooo much easier to deal with then glow, IMHO. A TREX 600 should be the best of all worlds. ;-)

Any chance we'll see some Align helis on FSone?

Cheers!
Lee

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 4:37 AM

R C Jack

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The problem is I have an old G4 PowerBook, so I can't get bootcamp. I have 1gb of RAM, a 1.5 GHZ processor (actually faster than a 2.50 GHZ PC), an ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 VRAM is 128mb. The reason I asked if it would work is because G3 says that it cannot be run through a windows emulator, and my 2 year old desktop isnt up to snuff (heck, it can't even run the free demo)

Lee- Bootcamp IS windows, so there is no reason why you couldnt run those sims (other than video and graphics card).

If anyone KNOWS if FSone will work on my my mac, I would be greatly appreciative

quote:

ORIGINAL: lsnover

quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

It should, if you have your emulator set up correctly. The better question is: how will it perform running through a Windows emulator on my Mac?

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

Can anyone?

The key will be the video card driver compatibility. With the new intel Macs and bootcamp, the Mac is more or less a "real" PC. The Bootcamp drivers are provided by Apple though, and not the same as the PC versions, though they should be close. You won't know until someone tries it. I'm hoping to get one of the new Macs soon, and hope to be able to run FSone and AFPD in bootcamp.

Cheers!
Lee

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 4:45 AM

33 Ford

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WHEN WILL THE FSONE BE OUT?

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 4:57 AM

RobT

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Lee, I would be very interested to hear how well these sims run in bootcamp / parallels. Please let us know. My Wife just got a 17" imac, and I can honestly say the only thing still holding me to PC's is flight sims.

Rob

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 6:09 AM

lsnover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RobT

Lee, I would be very interested to hear how well these sims run in bootcamp / parallels. Please let us know. My Wife just got a 17" imac, and I can honestly say the only thing still holding me to PC's is flight sims.

Rob

If you have an older non-Intel Mac, I can pretty much guarantee these SIMs are not going to work in an emulator like Virtual PC. They do not have the video card support which is critical.

Parallels won't work either, AT THE MOMENT, for the same reason, very limited graphics support. That SHOULD be coming, and parrallels performs VERY well as a Windows "box" otherwise, but it is not bootcamp.

With Bootcamp you are essentially booting your Mac as a full fledged PC. No emulation. So it's just a matter of native driver support.

In addition, there is a consortium of game makers who are now making a standard "emulation core" that will be bundled with CERTAIN windows games that will allow them to run under OSX on Macintel machines. The game makers have to "subscribe" to the group and make a few small changes to the programs, and include the "under the hood" emulation bits, but they are otherwise native Windows games. With these small changes, they will boot and run under OSX, and LOOK like they are native OSX games, but in reality, they are running a transpartent emulation technology under the hood. The best thing about this, is it does not require you to purchase a Windows OS license, it uses a Open source windows emulation collection based on a product called "WINE".

Very interesting days for Mac folks. It would be nice if FSOne could get on board with this group. IN the meantime Bootcamp is your best option. Unfortunately G3s and G4s and G5s need not apply.

Rob, get bootcamp up and running with a copy of Windows on that new iMac, and it very well might run and pretty well at that. I have both a Mac and a PC at the moment, and the PC is for Database work and games. I'm hoping a new MacPro can replace the two old boxes and cover all the bases.

Cheers!
Lee

< Message edited by lsnover -- 10/4/2006 6:11 AM >

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 6:30 AM

R C Jack

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What should I do for a simulator? Hope that HH surprises me with a Mac version =/ Oh well, looks like I will just get a plane rather than a sim for christmas

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RE: FS one by Horizon Hobbies - 10/4/2006 6:30 AM

MSelig

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Confirm or deny if it can work on a Mac is the question. Answer is neither. We don't know because we've not done any testing with that setup. All of the development and testing has been on PCs so far.

Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

The problem is I have an old G4 PowerBook, so I can't get bootcamp. I have 1gb of RAM, a 1.5 GHZ processor (actually faster than a 2.50 GHZ PC), an ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 VRAM is 128mb. The reason I asked if it would work is because G3 says that it cannot be run through a windows emulator, and my 2 year old desktop isnt up to snuff (heck, it can't even run the free demo)

Lee- Bootcamp IS windows, so there is no reason why you couldnt run those sims (other than video and graphics card).

If anyone KNOWS if FSone will work on my my mac, I would be greatly appreciative

quote:

ORIGINAL: lsnover

quote:

ORIGINAL: RVM

It should, if you have your emulator set up correctly. The better question is: how will it perform running through a Windows emulator on my Mac?

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

quote:

ORIGINAL: R C Jack

Can a Horizon Hobby rep confirm or deny whether or not FSone will be able to run in a Windows emulator on a mac?

Can anyone?

The key will be the video card driver compatibility. With the new intel Macs and bootcamp, the Mac is more or less a "real" PC. The Bootcamp drivers are provided by Apple though, and not the same as the PC versions, though they should be close. You won't know until someone tries it. I'm hoping to get one of the new Macs soon, and hope to be able to run FSone and AFPD in bootcamp.

Cheers!
Lee

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